A Lovely Discussion on God

atheist1

Reference: Discussions and what needs to be avoided
Pip and I have briefly exchanged our views on God here and there over the years. His viewpoint is theistic, coming from a Christian background. My viewpoint is non-theistic, coming from a Hindu background. But it was only recently that we got into a real discussion. We followed the discussion policy outlined in the link above, and the outcome of this discussion was fabulous for both of us.
This discussion precipitated from the example I provided in the policy above, because Pip wrote to me on Marty’s Blog:

PIP:

Hi Vinaire

I enjoy reading what you write and invariably look on your site when you leave a link. This particular link caught my interest https://vinaire.me/2012/07/16/discussions-and-what-needs-to-be-avoided/

On it you say under point 1 “Some people literally view God as a person who had created this universe. They completely ignore the inconsistency that a person has a form that occupies space ……… So God cannot be a person ……”

I believe you are making several assumptions here. Firstly the dictionary definition of “a person” is only one definition and fails to capture the essence of PERSONHOOD. The word “person” comes from persona which is defined as “a mask”. In Scientology terms “a valance”. This still falls short of what a believer mean by “person” when referring to God. In the Greek when referring to God as “a person” the word is hypostasis, which is essence. Baring this in mind I find it reasonable to suggest there may well be an “essence” behind creation that causes that creation to come into being.

I would go further to suggest that that which has being is preceded by PERSONHOOD. This I would see as the fundamental difference between SPIRIT and SOUL or in Scientology terminology between THETA and A THETAN. SPIRIT/THETA is un-differentiated and is therefore PERSONHOOD. SOUL/A THETAN is differentiated and is BEING. This suggests that “PERSONHOOD PROCEEDS BEING ”http://www.leithart.com/archives/003435.php Which is a reversal of how most people see it and indeed in common with all secular thinking Scientology postulates that ARC leads to love. Whereas Christianity in its purest form would say that love precedes ARC.

I would very much appreciate your comments on what I have written here. I like to think I am open to alternative viewpoints.

Regards
Pip

This discussion was important to me and I wanted it to proceed with minimum of distraction. I suggested to move the discussion to Vinaire’s Blog where the discussion policy is applied, and Pip agreed. I responded back by first defining a key word that Pip used, and then questioning something that Pip said, in order to clarify it:
hy·pos·ta·sis, noun
1. Metaphysics
a. something that stands under and supports; foundation.
b. the underlying or essential part of anything as distinguished from attributes; substance, essence, or essential principle.
2. Theology
a. one of the three real and distinct substances in the one undivided substance or essence of God.
b. a person of the Trinity.
c. the one personality of Christ in which His two natures, human and divine, are united.
3. Medicine/Medical
a. the accumulation of blood or its solid components in parts of an organ or body due to poor circulation.
b. such sedimentation, as in a test tube.
Origin: 
1580–90; < Late Latin < Greek hypóstasis that which settles at the bottom; substance, nature, essence, equivalent to hypo- hypo- + stásis standing, stasis

Vinaire:

Pip, you said, “Baring this in mind I find it reasonable to suggest there may well be an “essence” behind creation that causes that creation to come into being.”

From what I understand, essence of something is part of that thing. That means that the essence of creation would be part of that creation.

My question to you would be: Per your concept of God, is God part of the creation, or, is God separate and independent of creation?

Regards,
Vinay

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Pip, you said, “I would go further to suggest that that which has being is preceded by PERSONHOOD. “

I am confused about the way you are using the word “being”. Anything that one can think of is being even if as just a thought. So, beingness would be an isness rather than havingness.

Please explain your use of the term “being”.

Regards,
Vinay

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The subsequent discussion went as follows:

PIP:

Dear Vinay

I would understand God to be separate and independent of creation. In the same way that in Scientology terms THETA being a pure static must be separate and independent from creation which by definition is always in motion. A crude example would be the relationship between the gearbox and the engine of a vehicle. When the engine is running and the vehicle is stationary the engine and the gearbox could be said to be separate and independent. The clutch changes the relationship between the two and through its application the two become one. In the same way I see a thetan as the connection between THETA and M.E.S.T.

I wanted to know more about what essence means and came across this site http://www.versebyverse.org/doctrine/divessence.html

Interestingly it mentions Pantheism and points out

1. This is the belief that God and the universe are one.
2. It denies the transcendence of God, as well as His personality.
3. This system claims that God is just the sum total of all that exists.
4. The Hindu religion is predicated upon this belief.

Regards
Pip

 

Hi Vinay

Everything that exists has beingness, as you say even if it is a thought, but what I am talking about is that which precedes beingness. That which thinks the thought; the awareness of awareness; that which is not located in space and time, which has the ability to enter space and time, at which time it becomes being; when SPIRIT BECOMES SOUL or PERSONHOOD becomes a person.

Love
Pip

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Vinaire:

“I would understand God to be separate and independent of creation..”

PIP, I think I asked the wrong question. Sorry. The question I intended to ask was,
Is God separate and independent of existence?
Hope you can clarify that. Thanks.

Regards,
Vinaire

 

Hi Pip,

I am not sure if I am getting you clearly. To me being is the same concept as existing. If something is being then it is also existing. There are sequences that exist, meaning all steps of a sequence exist.

Are you saying that THAT which precedes beingness does not exist? If it does not exist then it cannot be known, right?

So, it would be unknowable. Am I right?

Regards,
Vinay

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Pip:

Hi Vinaire

God does not exist, he IS EXISTENCE. I first read this in a book by a Jesuit priest and thought it was rather neat. He also said “God does not forgive, He is forgiveness”. I see it a bit like an artist painting a picture. In one sense he is independent of his picture but in another he is completely involved. He is both the creator and the creation.

Love
Pip

 

Hi again

The Factors say BEFORE THE BEGINNING WAS A CAUSE AND THE ENTIRE PURPOSE OF THE CAUSE WAS THE CREATION OF EFFECT. IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE DECISION AND THE DECISION WAS TO BE.

From this I get that before the beginning there was no BEING. Being did not exist, all that existed was existence. This I am suggesting is what PERSONHOOD IS. And yes you are right PERSONHOOD IS UNKNOWABLE, unless personhood wishes to reveal itself.

We as human beings can only know Beingness in all its myriad forms and we do this through AFFINITY, REALITY and COMMUNICATION. However to know personhood we need REVELATION and that happens through SURRENDER, which results in the experience of UNCONDITIONAL LOVE.

The reason “Absolutes are unobtainable” is because they cannot be grasped, they can only be surrendered to. The bible says “be still and know that I am God”.

Love
Pip 

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Vinaire:

Hi Pip,

“God does not exist, he IS EXISTENCE.” is an inconsistency to me for the following reason:

The statement “God is EXISTENCE” basically says that God is an abstraction of existence. Linguistically, it is an abstract noun. Abstraction not only exists but also has form which makes one abstraction different from another. Actually, I look at abstraction as the fifth dimension of existence. Please see

https://vinaire.me/2014/03/11/the-4th-and-5th-dimensions/

So, God may not exist as something concrete, but it does exist as an abstraction. Therefore, saying that God does not exist is an inconsistency.

Regards,
Vinay

 

Hi Pip,

You are saying that God is PERSONHOOD, which is unknowable. To me this is inconsistent for the following reason.

If something is unknowable then it cannot be labeled as anything else but unknowable. Labeling it as anything else is indicative of a bias, which is an additive.

And bias has a form. It is a filter actually.

Regards,
Vinay

Here is how I see God!

https://vinaire.me/2010/12/05/essay-7-the-nature-of-god/
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Pip:

Hi Vinay

Thanks for your replies. I believe you have a presupposition that is at variants to what I am proposing. Just because God is UNKNOWABLE does not mean he cannot be known.

I could think a thought and that thought would be unknowable to you, and if I chose not to let you know that thought it remains unknowable, but if I choose to reveal it to you that thought is then known by you.

That is the amazing thing about personhood, IT CAN KNOW THE UNKNOWABLE.

I was reminded of a story from THE Bible where Daniel not only interprets the king’s dream but also tells the king what the thoughts were that brought about the dream without the king telling him what those thoughts were. It is an amazing story; you can read it in full here
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel+2&version=MSG

Lots of love
Pip

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Vinaire:

Hi Pip,

I am using the following definitions.

UNKNOWN: not known; not within the range of one’s knowledge, experience, or understanding; strange; unfamiliar.

UNKNOWABLE: incapable of being known or understood

One may think that God has been revealed to one, but that would still be a view through a filter. There is revelation due to a sudden reduction of filters. As long as there is a separation between self and God, there is a filter.

A filtered view of God is not the God i am talking about. Hope you understand.

Regards,
Vinay

 

Hi Pip,

First of all I want to acknowledge that your revelations are real. I have my revelations too. The revelations of all those millions of people over the past 2000 years are real too. I have no quarrel with that.

A revelation occurs when there is a sudden drop in filters. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that all filters are gone.

Space or separation is a filter. As long as one is viewing “God” through separation the complete experience of God is not there.

When one is viewing God as a person, it is being viewed through the filter of separation. Hope you understand where I am coming from.

Regards,
Vinay

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Epilogue:

No further response came from Pip. But he went to the Discussion Policy on my blog and clicked on LIKE. That made me very happy.
This is my realization:

God is the reality beyond the filters. The very last filter is the “filter of separation” and that is also the “filter of self”.

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May 25, 2014 – 11:58 AM Categories: Religion | Comments (7)

Circuit Model of the Universe

circuit1Reference: ARC – Affinity, Reality and Communication

This model was referred to at the above link as follows.

At the core of beingness is the desire to know. This desire triggers awareness. This awareness seems to flow like a current through the circuits of the mind. These circuits are composed of filters. The filters are composed of agreements that take the form of beliefs, biases, prejudices, fixed ideas, speculations, etc. They filter the reality the same way that colored glass filters light. The filters may be compared to the components in an electrical circuit that provide resistance to the flow of current.

Perception changes as awareness passes through the filters in the circuits of the mind. This perception may be tapped like “voltage” at any point in the circuit, and it would provide the “reality” at that point.

As “resistance” offered by filters in the circuit decreases, the “current” in terms of the flow of awareness increases. This increase in “current” may be viewed as increase in the capability to communicate.

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Here is a bird’s eye view of it.

  1. The circuit is the universe.

  2. The battery is the desire to know.

  3. The current in the circuit is awareness.

  4. The amount of the current flowing is the affinity.

  5. The resistances in the circuit are the filters (beliefs, fixed ideas, etc).

  6. The voltage at any point provides the reality at that point.

  7. The voltage drop between any two points is a measure of filters.

  8. Any two points in the circuit act as “terminals” in communication.

  9. They “become one” when filters between them are removed.

  10. The ultimate terminals are the two terminals of the battery.

  11. One terminal is perceiving the other terminal through the filters of the circuit (universe).

  12. As filters reduce, the affinity increases and reality improves.

  13. Ultimately, a short circuit occurs as the filters vanish.

  14. The desire to know is satisfied as the two terminals become one.

  15. There is no longer any awareness, affinity, reality, or communication.

  16. For these factors are no longer relevant.

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May 24, 2014 – 10:57 AM Categories: Scientology | Post a comment

Come home John

scnafrica's avatarScientologists back in comm


 JM02 Some of us have heard something of the strange tale of South African super hero and arch villain, the very first real Clear, John McMaster. We’re sure many more have no idea who he is.

John was hailed by LRH, who C/S’d his auditing, as the First Clear; accorded many accolades, went on a world tour,  addressed thousands of rapt listeners and then, by God, he was declared a suppressive person.

Why did he die in a rundown ‘flop house’ in England alone, ill and impoverished?

View original post 1,962 more words

May 22, 2014 – 8:16 AM Categories: Scientology | Comments (56)

CONFRONTING & MINDFULNESS

TR0

My introduction to Scientology was the best experience. I have documented it in My Introduction to America. I cherish that experience even when I have found Scientology to be an obsessively controlling money-hungry cult. The extraordinary experience started after being introduced to TR0, a confronting exercise, of Scientology.

The literal meaning of CONFRONT is “to be face to face with; be in front of.” But this meaning has the connotation of hostility, defiance and opposition. The followers of Scientology do “confront” that way in a forceful manner when they don’t like something, but that is not what TR0 is about. TR0 is more like practicing mindfulness.

This data is paraphrased from a book by L. Kin.

Hubbard assigned “confronting” the sense of “not flinching, keeping cool.” He described confronting as “the ability to be there comfortably and perceive,” in the sense of calmly holding one’s position without reaching or withdrawing, and seeing something as it is. He called it a state of being, not of doing. Doing followed from it later.

Consequently, “good confront” is the one and only prerequisite for seeing what is there. A man in panic won’t see any more what’s right in front of his nose. He does not “duplicate.” By duplication Hubbard meant seeing things as they are.

“Seeing things as they are” is the essence of mindfulness as taught by Buddha. To accomplish this the TR0 instructions were “to be there without flinching or avoiding, and do nothing else.” The understanding given was that discomforts will run out by themselves if you simply be there. There were no other instructions. To me this meant practicing mindfulness. That was the start of a wonderful adventure for me. That adventure still continues.

Here is a compilation of my understanding and what I did on TR0 in 1969 that just blew me away.

EXERCISE: Being There

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L Kin outlines the following “Scale of Confronting” developed by Hubbard.

Dub-in
Blackness
Being elsewhere
Ability to confront
Willingness to experience and participate
Being and knowing at will

A person may start out finding life to be difficult and hard to understand. He is assuming and speculating about life instead of directly looking and experiencing it. He does not see what is actually there.

As he starts to confront he may go through a period of confusion (blackness, nervousness, lack of concentration). This happens because he is now questioning all those beliefs that he had taken for granted.

As he starts to practice mindfulness, his willingness to experience and participate in life increases. His minds become clear of complexities. He can now learn quickly by spotting inconsistencies and resolving them as he faces them. He develops a refreshing view of life.

Though Scientology as a movement has gone off the rails at this point in time; but a person can move still up this scale of confronting by practicing mindfulness as described on this blog.

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Hubbard derived three brilliant maxims from his idea of confront:

  1. The degree of complexity is proportional to the degree of non-confront.
  2. The degree of simplicity is proportional to the degree of confront.
  3. The basis of aberration is a non-confront.”

I have followed these maxims to this day to simplify my life and what I know. Actually, this blog is designed around these maxims, with the understanding that confronting is mindfulness.

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May 20, 2014 – 1:18 PM Categories: Scientology | Post a comment

ARC – Affinity, Reality and Communication

arc

References: Affinity / Reality / The Theistic Viewpoint of God

ARC stands for affinity, reality and communication.  ARC forms the core concepts in Scientology. These concepts sound so very simple, deep and meaningful that they attract a lot of people. However, there are hidden curves thrown into these concepts that trap people in the nightmare called the Church of Scientology.

People who believe in the pseudo-scientific definitions of affinity, reality and communication provided by Hubbard continue to be trapped in a mental quagmire even after leaving the Church of Scientology. It is not easy to get back to normal while still believing in Scientology concepts. One must thoroughly examine the concepts learned in Scientology to be free of the “Scientology trap.”

Hubbard defines affinity in terms of reaching. One reaches for something in order to have it close to one. Lack of affinity would be expressed in withdrawal. “Affinity is a phenomenon of space in that it expresses the willingness to occupy the same place as the thing which is loved or liked. The reverse of it would be antipathy (. . .) which would be the unwillingness to occupy the same space as or the unwillingness to approach something or someone.”

Reality is not looked at as “objective” by Hubbard. It is certainly observable, yet not necessarily objective. Each observer takes his own viewpoint… In any case, when we talk about reality, we talk about agreement. “Reality is the agreement upon perceptions and data in the physical universe. All we can be sure is real is that on which we have agreed is real. Agreement is the essence of reality.”

The definition of Communication that is hammered by Hubbard is as follows. “Communication is the consideration and action of impelling an impulse or particle from source-point across a distance to receipt-point, with the intention of bringing into being at the receipt-point a duplication and understanding of that which emanated from the source point”

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There are human beings, but a being is not a point like “energy production source” as defined in Scientology, and which is the theistic viewpoint of God. There is beingness, and that beingness consists of the desire to know, awareness and filters.

The filters are composed of agreements that take the form of beliefs, biases, prejudices, fixed ideas, speculations, etc. They filter the reality the same way that colored glass filters light.

At the core of beingness is the desire to know. This desire triggers awareness. This awareness seems to flow like a current through the circuits of the mind. These circuits are composed of filters. The filters may be compared to the components in an electrical circuit that provide resistance to the flow of current.

Perception changes as awareness passes through the filters in the circuits of the mind. This perception may be tapped like “voltage” at any point in the circuit, and it would provide the “reality” at that point.

As “resistance” offered by filters in the circuit decreases, the “current” in terms of the flow of awareness increases. This increase in “current” may be viewed as increase in the capability to communicate.

The decrease in filters also reduces the alteration induced in perception. As a result the reality also improves.

The decrease in filters also removes the restrictions placed on awareness. The awareness becomes more inclusive and it encompasses a lot more. This may be looked upon as improvement in affinity.

It is only when the filters are reduced that affinity, reality and communication improve.

The ARC does not increase simply by increasing the “flow of communication,” as believed in Scientology. Increase in the flow of communication just gives you more of the same.

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May 15, 2014 – 12:27 PM Categories: Scientology | Comments (141)