Questioning Scientology

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Hinduism allows its scriptures to be questioned.

Buddha encouraged his disciples to question his teachings.

Knowledge grows when it is questioned and discussed. For inconsistencies are then discovered and eliminated.

Why does Scientology prohibit its followers to question and discuss its knowledge?

If Scientology must grow it should allow its theories to be examined, questioned, challenged and discussed by its followers.

The other option would be for Scientology to go the way of the Catholic Church – moving lifelessly only because of past momentum.

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Comments

  • vinaire  On November 14, 2013 at 8:50 PM

    I have been examining Scientology here.

    https://vinaire.me/2013/07/24/scientology/

    Recently, I have been discussing Scientology auditing, specifically, its process of False Data Stripping. On this thread, I would like to discuss, the much talked about ‘L’ Rundowns. I shall like to start with the L-11 Rundown.

    .

    • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 18, 2013 at 2:30 AM

      V dear I have not done the L’s. But I can give reality on established viewpoints. What ever that worth. 2 cent? 🙂

  • MarkNR  On November 14, 2013 at 9:19 PM

    Good start for a rousing commentary

  • vinaire  On November 14, 2013 at 9:38 PM

    “L11, The New Life Rundown was developed to give a person a new life. This means it can handle that part of an individual’s case which stops him from really living. It handles the major source of aberration upon which attention is fixed, blasting apart that major personal stumbling block.

    “The EP of L11 is a New Life.”

    .

    • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 19, 2013 at 1:26 AM

      Well, V dear.. now lets establish here what kind of viewpoints you consider one should have about the “”””LIFE RUNDOWN”” a human viewpoint or a viewpoint from a Entity.
      Let me know please.

      • vinaire  On November 19, 2013 at 5:58 AM

        Are those the only options available?

        .

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 19, 2013 at 11:49 AM

          NO.. there can be many from the ”human” viewpoint.
          Since LRH talks about new life, than he means just that.. If some one don’t like what they have created than having the L R. will erase some of the old -unwanted view point which has stopped the person having what really wanted-desired and can have a different life which would be better liked wanted and in this case less stimulating for that person.
          Auditing works, and L rundown will help that person to erase some old unwanted creation.

        • vinaire  On November 19, 2013 at 12:54 PM

          Thank you. And what would be a viewpoint from an entity?

          .

  • vinaire  On November 14, 2013 at 10:51 PM

    Let’s examine the theory of L-11 Rundown. The first point of the theory is:

    (a) Man is basically good

    .

    That sounds good. But when we look at this point closely, we find that there is no criterion for good in an absolute sense. The idea of good is relative only, which means that anyone can be good no matter what state one is in. So, the statement “Man is basically good” simply plays on one’s bias.

    But everyone has some idea of what good is. The bottom line is,

    The idea “I am basically good” tends to bring relief and hope that one can improve and get better.

    .

    • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 18, 2013 at 2:33 AM

      Man basically good. Now that is a mouthful. If all creations are equal than that saying is blown to bits. 🙂

  • vinaire  On November 15, 2013 at 6:26 AM

    The next point of L-11 theory is:

    (b) That when faced with doing evil that Man restrains himself and limits or lowers his power/cause level

    .

    Doing evil is engaging in behavior that is harmful. It is behavior that is not optimum to handle some situation. A person engaging in evil means that his abilities are already lowered. He is not lowering his abilities after engaging in evil.

    A person who realizes that he has done evil is actually regaining some awareness after having lost it. He is recovering from confusion. It is not that he is restraining himself. He is simply being introspective and trying to resolve his confusion. The bottom line is

    It is ignorance and confusion that lowers one’s abilities and leads one to evil behavior (committing harmful actions).

    .

    • MarkNR  On November 16, 2013 at 4:35 AM

      Vin: “A person who realizes that he has done evil is actually regaining some awareness after having lost it”
      A different direction of looking at it. Does one continue committing the overt in an effort to ‘make the first one right’? An effort to ‘not be wrong’? A basic Hubbard principal.
      Mark

      • vinaire  On November 16, 2013 at 9:52 PM

        An overt is committed as a result of ignorance and confusion. When a person realizes that he has committed an overt his impulse is likely to handle his confusion. Until that ignorance and confusion is fully handled, it may seem that person is still committing overts. In my opinion, those overts are not intentional. They are still the result of ignorance and confusion. The person may restrain himself from acting in that area because he is now aware that he doesn’t know. His attention goes more toward learning.

        Man is not as evil as Hubbard made him out to be.

        There may be cases where someone continues to commit overts in an effort to ‘make the first one right’. But, in my opinion, such behavior shall be proportional to the degree that person is feeling threatened. When there are no threats, the person shall realize his error and is likely to work toward correcting himself.

        .

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 17, 2013 at 10:45 PM

          V;; “Man is not as evil as Hubbard made him out to be.”” right, but do keep it in mind that LRH was talking about his own reality no matter what he said… BUT he talked like he was the elected communicator for the whole human race and what he said have applied to every being: born and unborn on this Planet
          Every man no matter who is that person can only express the ”selfs” reality.

        • vinaire  On November 17, 2013 at 10:55 PM

          I believe that the more mindful a person is, the less is his reality influenced by the filter of “self”.

          In my opinion, Hubbard’s “self” was a big filter that determined his reality.

          .

    • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 17, 2013 at 10:39 PM

      v:. “”A person engaging in evil means that his abilities are already lowered. He is not lowering his abilities….””
      Right you are… very well put.. in fact can not be put any better.

    • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 18, 2013 at 2:36 AM

      B,
      I believe we all do our best at all occasions, if one pulls back because of that would be from ”fear” and that to would be his best action. but I could give 6-8 different reality why man would pull back.

  • vinaire  On November 15, 2013 at 6:53 AM

    The next point of L-11 theory is:

    (c) That long ago on the wholetrack, evil persons (originally said to be “psychs”) implanted people with evil purposes

    .

    From one perspective, this appears to be some off-the-wall hypothesis. But the key idea is that one behaves in an evil fashion because one has evil purposes. Therefore, to cure a person of evil behavior, one should purge his evil purposes.

    Is the above hypothesis true?

    The L-11 Rundown is said to have fantastic results for some people but not 100% of the time all across the board. We need to look at what really happens when there are good results.

    .

    • Chris Thompson  On November 15, 2013 at 7:06 AM

      I did not do L-11, but this theory and practice is a similar patter to “False Purpose Rundown.” I have hundreds of hours of this “auditing.” On the plus side, it was good exercise for my mind but on the downside the request for the “evil purpose” asked for at the base of these chains of harmful acts was not a good question for me making this some of the least fruitful auditing I experienced. Also, its emphasis on the evil at the root of good people seems inconsistent to me although that mechanism is explained in the rundown, its application seems to harp on evil purposes. Possibly it should use a different vector.

    • vinaire  On November 15, 2013 at 7:10 AM

      I shall like to look closely at the concept of “evil purpose.”

      What is an evil purpose? Where is it coming from?

      .

      • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 17, 2013 at 10:58 PM

        evil purpose is simply another persons intention which collides with the original in this case would be yours.. It is said to be harmful… for harmful for who? For the originator of the first postulate.. you see you don’t liked it when I take down the wall between our land which you have built against my wishes, the wall locked the view of the lake bellow.. I have become a evil person by collected agreement of course who all were your friends. Evil…what is is a agreement same as any other, Example: ice cream is good because etc.. Ice cream is bad Etc…. evil is one of the words when it has been used, labeled people because what have they done have caused immense harm to those.. Evil pointed out in others also point toward self: OH look how good I am because I am not like that nasty evil, no good person..
        Just my reality..

        • vinaire  On November 18, 2013 at 6:40 PM

          Yes, I understand very well that good and evil are relative and not absolute.

          .

    • vinaire  On November 15, 2013 at 7:13 AM

      Is the basis of evil purpose “psychs”? Then how did “psychs” get their evil purpose?

      .

      • Chris Thompson  On November 15, 2013 at 7:21 AM

        hahaha – Yeah, well that’s one of LRH’s rants and all, but that’s not the basis of FPRD, I don’t know about L-11. FPRD to me could be used better. Even at its basis, its theory of evil purpose is as a solution to a confusion preceding it. There is a consistency with KHTK here. But it ends up being abusive to the PC when juicy overts and evil purposes are not handed up. I liked MarkNR’s emphasis on “trust” for this type of auditing is working with things the PC is already fragile about. A misuse or abuse of this can have a really bad result on the PC by either caving him in and making him into a piece of shit or another reaction may be to harden one’s shell and be less reachable, less meditative than before.

        • vinaire  On November 15, 2013 at 7:54 AM

          There must be some inconsistency in the basic approach of Scientology auditing that lends itself to misuse and abuse.

          .

        • Chris Thompson  On November 15, 2013 at 4:27 PM

          I’m not really trying to look at nor give a political answer – I don’t care about that. We here are just discussing mechanics. We all know a tool can be used, misused, abused or neglected.

          In doing so, and as a result of my lifelong conditioning, earlier in life when confronted with a mental confusion I sometimes lashed out. Years later, having continued my conditioning but modifying the earlier conditioning I find I don’t tend to do that as much as I did years ago… I have better responses than I did then. As I wrote earlier, the evil purpose as a result of an earlier confusion did not run well on me personally although I can understand the mechanics.

        • vinaire  On November 15, 2013 at 4:33 PM

          Well, I am thinking in terms of poka yoke or “mistake-proofing” Scientology auditing process (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poka-yoke).

          I have addressed this somewhat in the following thread, but more ideas are welcome.

          https://vinaire.me/2012/10/05/a-look-at-scientology-auditing/

          .

      • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 18, 2013 at 2:41 AM

        Now, that answer can be only found by each individual by going back tracking into their own past.. in other words confront their very own beliefs.

  • Chris Thompson  On November 15, 2013 at 7:23 AM

    What was your experience with auditing false purpose style auditing?

    • vinaire  On November 15, 2013 at 7:58 AM

      I don’t know if I got that far. I just remember being a ‘dog pc’.

      I naturally applied mindfulness, and didn’t speculate much in response to auditing.questions.

      .

      • Chris Thompson  On November 15, 2013 at 4:32 PM

        heheh. “Dog PC” – When a person is conditioned by thrashing enough, I don’t think he gets into a very “sessionable” state of mind. Blaming the PC for his lack of response to auditing, especially one as well hatted as you obviously are reflects badly on the 100% workable technology being delivered at the Mecca of technical perfection. Your personal story and glowing reports of your success with dianetic auditing shows me you were anything other than a “dog” pc.

        • vinaire  On November 15, 2013 at 4:42 PM

          My experience with auditing tells me that the overall method used in Scientology may be compared to a shot gun approach.

          A few processes did hit the target in my case but most didn’t. A lot of time was wasted in trying to get FNs on processes that were unnecessary.

          Most of my gains came from the very early part of my auditing that I have documented in “About Vinaire”. There were conditions still that I wanted to address but most processes didn’t seem to work.

          What has worked for me since then is Buddha’s mindfulness approach.

          .

  • vinaire  On November 15, 2013 at 8:27 AM

    Evil has to do with the idea of harm associated with hallucinations, madness, irrationality and confusion, which is accompanied by fear.

    https://vinaire.me/2012/06/10/looking-at-hallucinations/

    Thus, underlying evil is ignorance, confusion, and physical manifestations. Evil can be caused by ingesting certain substances.

    So, what is an evil purpose? How self-determined is such a purpose?

    .

    • vinaire  On November 15, 2013 at 8:36 AM

      Saying that evil purpose was implanted by psychs is non-scientific and non-mindful assessment done by a non-optimum mind.

      It doesn’t do anything to improve understanding. It is “The Why is God.”

      https://vinaire.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/the-why-is-god.pdf

      .

    • vinaire  On November 15, 2013 at 8:39 AM

      We can say that Hubbard was rational at times and irrational at other times. He was not consistently rational.

      .

    • Chris Thompson  On November 15, 2013 at 4:59 PM

      The evil purpose seems to correspond with the Scientology definition and use of the word computation. Computations are built of assumptions and result in more unexamined assumptions, This also might be the way to describe the building blocks of a ideology.

      • vinaire  On November 15, 2013 at 5:28 PM

        From Technical Dictionary:

        EVIL PURPOSE, destructive intentions.

        INTENTION, 1. intention is the command factor as much as anything else. If you intend something to happen it happens if you intend it to happen. Verbalization is not the intention. The intention is the carrier wave which takes the verbalization along with it. 2 . degree of relative beingness which an individual desires to assume as plotted on the tone scale.

        .

        A beingness seems to be a resultant vector made up of hundreds of, or many more, smaller vectors. These vectors may be defined in terms of desires, or, maybe, in terms of considerations.

        The vectors are not controlled by the beingness. Beingness, actually, represents these vectors. These vectors respond to each other and to vectors in the environment.

        More understanding is required about these vectors. But the idea of a “being” intending is quite simplistic in my opinion.

        .

      • MarkNR  On November 15, 2013 at 6:48 PM

        Chris:
        I wrote an article which defines an underlying principal of evil purposes. This principal is not addressed by Ron or any other science. I discovered this while doing whole track research. It is data of great magnitude and explains the current foibles of the church, govts. and many other group endeavors. Once read, many things will become clear. I can send it to you if you wish. Just a couple of pages.
        MarkNR@hushmail.com
        Let me know.

        • vinaire  On November 15, 2013 at 6:57 PM

          Mark,
          You may publish your article on this thread if you wish.

          .

        • Chris Thompson  On November 15, 2013 at 8:29 PM

          How could I resist a nice invitation like that ?!? Chris@giantelectric.net

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 17, 2013 at 11:07 PM

          can not be the whole track search since concepts are very new… and “evil” that is coming from judgement. now if you would do some exploring when judgement it self has come into the game… you will find an the same page: good-bad, life-death, born-die.. etc all the opposing items.

  • vinaire  On November 15, 2013 at 4:18 PM

    In my opinion any statement of “evil purposes” is going to be very imprecise being subjective. It would be liable to misinterpretation. A person should never be asked for his “evil purposes”. It would only introvert that person and get him to figure upon his case. This is harmful and not recommended.

    The purpose of therapy is to handle the unwanted condition, which is real to a person. That is the starting point. Then one can help the person by getting him to look at his condition with mindfulness, and start resolving inconsistencies.

    Such inconsistencies may be categorized as follows:

    Engram (Inconsistency in Perception)
    Unwanted feeling or emotion (Inconsistency in Experience)
    Indoctrination (Inconsistency in Information)
    Belief (Inconsistency in Hypothesis)
    Doctrine (Inconsistency in Theory)
    Fixed ideas (Inconsistency in Principles)
    Fixed viewpoints (Inconsistency in Axioms)
    Fixed identity (Inconsistency in Self)

    Inconsistencies add inaccuracies to extrapolated knowledge. All the situations in life are the result of such inconsistencies. This includes inconsistencies in one’s diet etc.

    This process may be speeded up by rapidly narrowing down to major inconsistencies. These inconsistencies are connected to incidents where the outlook of the person underwent major shifts. The guide needs only to ask in very general terms if such incidents exist, and then help the person look at them using mindfulness. No private details are needed because no analysis is required. The therapy will work as the person looks more closely at moments of shift in those incidents. He does not have to divulge what he looks at.

    If the person is unable to locate such incidents, then the guide should help the person unburden the mind of minor inconsistencies. With this actionl major inconsistencies might show up and get resolved.

    .

    • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 17, 2013 at 11:09 PM

      You right, no one should be asked for : to cough up evil intentions… hehehe.. those should be confronted too but not in that manner.

  • vinaire  On November 15, 2013 at 5:04 PM

    Scientology has this idea of wholetrack that extends to trillions of years into the past. Is this idea true?

    .

    In my opinion, what is there will come up in awareness as one applies mindfulness. It is the lack of mindfulness that prevents one from seeing what is there.

    If the idea of whole track adds expectations about what should be there, then that violates the very first aspect of mindfulness. It would color what is there by installing filters of expectation. This may lead to conditioning.

    It may be nice to have the concept of wholetrack just like I have the concept of unknowable. But such concepts need to be set aside when they interfere with mindfulness.

    .

    • Chris Thompson  On November 15, 2013 at 5:18 PM

      When being mindful, we have to be mindful of our models. Models are deliberately as consistent as possible, this is why we build them, to give ourselves mental and physical analogies of the world around us.

      For instance, in your model using unknowable as that which is unmanifested, people balk and argue that everything is manifested. Yet you persist and call it a placeholder and also use irrational numbers to make your point that the final result of 22/7 is unknowable. I get it and that is consistent, however I see it as one model only.

      Another viewpoint would be to say that one can know any value of pi that one wishes to know to any degree of accuracy that one wishes to know it. My point is that how one asks the question sort of filters the model. In this model everything is manifested and nothing is unmanifested. Yet one can not know nothing therefore there being something one cannot know is a conjecture only, and this is consistent.

      Remember my math question to you whether .999… is equal to 1.0 and you showed me how it is? I liked that example but can also understand that it is semantical in value only.

      • vinaire  On November 15, 2013 at 5:32 PM

        We are limited by our considerations and the logic we use.

        .

        • Chris Thompson  On November 15, 2013 at 8:13 PM

          Or did you mean, ” – We are limited by our considerations and the tautology that we use! “haha

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 24, 2013 at 6:31 PM

          That is the fact!!! and LRH too was saying the very same!

  • vinaire  On November 15, 2013 at 7:03 PM

    It seems that we have throughly trashed the following part of L-11 theory:

    (c) That long ago on the wholetrack, evil persons (originally said to be “psychs”) implanted people with evil purposes

    But we should keep in mind that there is something in L-11 process that works.

    .

    • vinaire  On November 15, 2013 at 7:18 PM

      The following part of L-11 theory is just an extension of point (c) above

      Such an implant is referred to in this rundown as an “Implant to Harm”, as these implants embedded commands to do something harmful.

      .

      I see implant as some “vector” embedded in the structure of beingness. A beingness may be looked upon as a matrix of vectors that are associated through cause-effect relationships. The resultant vector of beingness is subject to this embedded vector.

      .

  • MarkNR  On November 15, 2013 at 7:06 PM

    THE DESIRE AND EFFORT TO CONTROL OTHERS IS THE GREATEST OF ALL EVILS, SURPASSING EVEN THE LOVE OF MONEY. It is not the same as the competent and ethical direction of activities of an area or environment. It is so close to an individuals basic purposes that it is difficult to detect and handle. That is why the ability to Grant Beingness (to allow others to be who they are) is so rare and valuable. Those who are truly dangerous cannot see this intention in themselves. They have as a motivator, that the only way they can become more is to make others less. THESE FACTS ARE MUCH MORE IMPORTANT IN DAILY LIFE THAN MOST REALIZE.

    This is a very interesting and sometimes dangerous subject, the basis
    of which came very very early on my track. Anyone who cannot control
    anything is obviously insane. But lets look at my statement, “The
    desire and effort to control others” without qualification or addition.
    Not “control in order to…” or “control others so that…” or ” to
    accomplish…” etc, but to control others as a purpose. Now, you may
    say “of course, that goes without saying”. But it’s not that
    straightforward or simple. Your very first, most basic purpose was to
    be, to continue. After that was create. Create, create, create. Then
    came control. It is very basic to you as a being. “After I made this,
    what am I going to do with it.” Then, a few million yrs. later it got
    more complicated. At this point, you must read “In the beginning”
    (attached) if you haven’t before. An understanding of separation and
    other beingnesses is important.
    Later, there were games. Competitive games. Create, control was
    all the rage. Who is most clever, fastest, most accurate. It was fun.
    No harm. And you spent a long time getting really good at it. Then
    there were tricks on your competitors,,, more fun. There were teams and
    strategies. How can I get my enemy to do this and that so that we can
    win. Then, controlling your teammates and enemies became part of the
    game. But it was lighthearted and fun. Sometimes, controlling others
    was the game. Still, there was nothing wrong with that. There was
    nothing wrong with anything, it was all new and exciting. This is the
    time all your basic postulates, considerations, and purposes were being
    formed. The dynamics, as such, weren’t thought of yet. We all built
    these purposes, especially when we won. Even when we lost, we admired
    the winner and took on his intentions. But a few were really good at
    controlling others and it became a primary purpose. Little did they, or
    we, know that a long way down the road, it would be so destructive and
    insidious. They learned that to control is to direct and limit the
    actions of others and to prevent clever and creative actions. Whether
    enemies or allies. This separated you further from theta as a whole but
    was made up for by considering others as underlings, like pets. A lower
    form of affinity was established. Winning for self only became the way
    to go. And often, it worked.
    But the real problem now is that it is so close to the real basic
    purposes. It was gained before any purposes of any kind were harmful or
    contra-survival. And it served you well and kept you on top much of the
    time. This is a tough one and must be resolved. Education and
    realization of your original relationship with basic Theta is of course
    necessary. But that isn’t all. Techniques to discover when and why we
    agreed with those intentions is also required. This part of a case is
    not completely handled on the pre OT levels. I’ve seen this in myself
    and others. I’ve seen pieces of incidents when it originally stuck with
    me. I don’t have all, or even most of the details or other complexities
    which complement and combine with this area. But I can see that this
    is of utmost importance. I know in my core that this is vital.
    You can look at this as squirrel tech or wild ideas. Another way to
    look at this paper is as a series of cognitions and a success story.
    Thanks for listening, and your comments and feedback are
    desired and appreciated. Mark

    • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 17, 2013 at 11:14 PM

      Control is not a evil intention… control is something totally different its origin is FEAR… one has fear of others reality, their actions so for that reason the person who has fear wants to control others so others reality because it is controlled can not effect the controller. I have 7 posts in my blog about fear. I have blown, erased mine about 16 years back.

      • MarkNR  On November 18, 2013 at 1:03 AM

        Elizabeth”
        Very happy to hear that you handled an undesirable area of your case. When one KNOWS he has recognized something important, he knows it.
        When I wrote that paper about Control, it was for a different audience and perhaps the wording was not exactly perfect for all. But it’s intent and principal is precise and understandable. The date was a bit difficult to nail down since time was not so solid and enforced. There are several other areas of case which come from this portion of our existence. I say ‘our’ because I have seen it play out like a script in many others.
        The important part is that there are basic considerations that pre-date and stand as the foundation of later bank, mass, reactive mind and other more mechanical aberrations. I can discuss the hidden meanings of ‘control as a purpose’ or ‘harmful acts’ But their meaning in the article is simple and obvious. These early purposes were formed long before the idea of fear was thought of. That being said, I mentioned once that in some Scn. processes, once the basic on a chain is found, the next incident up becomes the new basic which then scans quickly and easily, but should not be ignored. I am currently looking at other areas which relate to this one. It might take a little time.
        Fear, avoidance, hiding facts, altering occurrences is a very broad area of case which I have touched on while doing other investigations. You have made significant discoveries in this area which perhaps could assist me.
        My system has been to learn a basic principal, look over a great many instances in my existence when it applied, find the missing data until I realize how this principal affected me and exactly when I decided to act, behave, think, or react in a certain manner. I then adjust the principal from my newly found experience and look at my past again to verify the principal. I then accept AND discard the principal until I find when and who invented it and why. I can then use or not use the principal according to need in present time. This has brought much understanding and relief in many areas, not to mention quite a bit of laughter as some things that were just plain silly came to light.
        I will use other means of discovery in the future and assistance and advice when needed.
        My observations
        Mark

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 18, 2013 at 1:28 AM

          Thank you Mark, when I write I always say this is my reality, I speak only for self..
          I would be very happy to point toward the sessions which erased all fear in the universe, for me and
          I do not question any ones knowledge only mine.. and I do not want to evaluate and deffinately invalidate any ones reality. Since I believe that what others see-experience is real, because they experience that and that is the reason they have knowledge about that subject. Otherwise the could not talk-write of that subject.
          I went to V. blog because I was invited by him.. V. and I we are old blogging friends which was in Geir Isenes blog.
          Personally I do not post outside of my own, since my realities have become very different and I do not wish to cause upsets, ARCB’s in any ones universe.
          If you have questions and if I have the answer to that question I am happy to give…
          Mark, by now what I write the knowledge I have is not from study subjects from others but from cognitions.
          Please read some of the posts on fear. there are seven of them. If you have problem pulling them out please let me know.. also, you can use my email. endlesstringofpearls@gmail.com E.

        • MarkNR  On November 18, 2013 at 7:03 PM

          Elizabeth, I enjoy your posts, have learned a few things already, please don’t stop. I haven’t found your posts on fear, could I get an instruction on how to find them?
          As you may have noticed, i believe that an important part of enlightenment is a structured, methodical examination of one’s past existence. Not the only part, but an important one. Ron discovered, or decided, that, after clear, one must handle the body thetan problem before looking at ones past directly. The problem being that once one is released from his obsession to carry his photos around with him, he may suck in others banks. He developed tricks to try to get around this, such as spotting bits of mass and blowing them in various ways. I have been fortunate in that I have had certainty on most events that I have looked at, and there have been many. Some may not be so fortunate and get overwhelmed.
          I am curious as to what paths you are taking and if we could benefit from each others experience. I have studied other sciences, The Tao, KHTK, and others and have learned much. Would like to comm. with you.
          MarkNR@hushmail.com

  • MarkNR  On November 15, 2013 at 7:40 PM

    This article, Control, partially but not fully explains how some considerations are primary and many are secondary. Primary decisions, considerations were made when nothing was confusing or in error. Everything was new. There was no such thing as anything wrong. It was all new. There were no GPMs since there was no such thing as a problem. These very basic decisions became who you are, how you look at everything and are a part of you. In order to be causative and free of these forgotten ‘opinions’, one must look at when they were made and compare them to your experience in life and recognize that they are not necessarily correct for any given time. To be able to use your knowledge without unconscious compulsion, in present time. These early decisions do not show up on any assessment since there is no mass attached. Your early track must be scanned for things that you ‘know’ are right, compare them with experience and release ones self from the primary consideration.
    The distinction between primary and secondary considerations is a point of considerable importance to the rehabilitation of a being and I am continuing research into how to do it safely on a broad scale.
    Mark
    PS: One must be led to some of these things, which is why I used the word ‘safely’. From recent events, you all know what I mean.

  • vinaire  On November 15, 2013 at 7:42 PM

    Mark: “THE DESIRE AND EFFORT TO CONTROL OTHERS IS THE GREATEST OF ALL EVILS, SURPASSING EVEN THE LOVE OF MONEY.”

    .

    Let me take the idea of “personal” out of the above and state it in a more objective fashion. A beingness may be looked upon as a matrix of vectors that are associated through cause-effect relationships. These vectors could be made up of thoughts and desires. A group of such vectors may define the scope of self. The resultant vector at the “center of vectors” (analogous to the “center of mass”) may define the purpose of self.

    “Others” are also selves with similar structure consisting of vectors.

    How the purpose of different selves may interact with each other may define the consistency or inconsistency among those selves.

    The idea of “THE DESIRE AND EFFORT TO CONTROL OTHERS” may then be defined in terms of the purpose of a self, which is so forceful that it undermines the purposes of other selves. The self is evil because it dominates the purpose of all other selves. This causes a great deal of inconsistency because the natural harmony of vectors is destroyed.

    Now a mathematics may be derived for this model.

    .

    • vinaire  On November 15, 2013 at 8:55 PM

      Did the self called “Hubbard” dominate the purpose of all other selves around it? Does that make Hubbard evil? Why or why not?

      How is a self harmed or destroyed? Will dominating its purpose harm or destroy it?

      .

      • MarkNR  On November 15, 2013 at 11:36 PM

        What were Ron’s motives? Desperation to finish ‘The Bridge’? To me, the relationship of oneness with all and individuality may not have ‘clicked’ with him. He had a great love for people and yet ordered some into the chain locker.

        • vinaire  On November 16, 2013 at 8:02 AM

          To be mindful I would simply look at the dynamics of the motives here. This is what I see.

          (1) There is a desperate effort to understand oneself. That is the primary purpose.
          (2) There is complete disregard for the purposes of other selves.
          (3) Other selves are useful only to the degree they help in the understanding of oneself.
          (4) Other selves are required primarily to be experimented upon.
          (5) The most important activity is laying out the bridge to understand self.
          (6) Self is the ultimate reality. It must be boosted up in everyway.
          (7) To move in this direction I shall start first with myself.

          .

        • vinaire  On November 16, 2013 at 8:24 AM

          Hubbard’s self came first because he was saving the world. He was the source of the only workable tech around. All other “tech” were unworkable and squirrel.

          Being the source of the only workable tech Hubbard could not be sacrificed. Other selves could be sacrificed in order to save the world, nay the universe.

          I am not trying to be harsh to Hubbard. I am trying to see things as they are.

          Buddha considered attachment to self to be a trap. Hubbard made boosting of self to be his goal. Hubbard essentially called Buddha a wussy.

          .

        • vinaire  On November 16, 2013 at 9:21 AM

          The basic-basic is an attachment to self. This attachment is the rock.

          The basic-basic is not the self. It is perfectly ok to have a self.

          .

    • vinaire  On November 15, 2013 at 9:03 PM

      How much self-determinism does Scientology really bring about with KSW?

      .

      • MarkNR  On November 15, 2013 at 10:46 PM

        KSW:
        Throughout history, every science, technology, wisdom of the mind, spirit, life, has been altered, degraded or made confusing in an effort to make it unworkable. KSW was an EFFORT TO SOLVE A PROBLEM. THE BEGINNING OF EVERY BASIC OVERT. Ron had some confusions in this area. His intention of the science not being degraded was alloyed with his intention of HIS CREATION not being altered. After seeing the effect of KSW over the last 40+ years, this has become clear. Stay with his first intention and it will not be a problem.
        Mark

      • vinaire  On November 15, 2013 at 10:57 PM

        Should there be a “KSW” for Newton’s Laws of Motion?

        Truth has staying power. It can only be updated by a higher truth, such as, Einstein’s Theory of Relativity. but the original truth still stays there as a relative truth.

        Truth once brought to light can never be fully suppressed. Other people may try to alter it, but the alteration is theirs.

        So the fear that one’s creation may not get altered is baseless. Only the falsehoods in Scientology shall be forgotten after some time. The truth shall stay.

        .

        • MarkNR  On November 15, 2013 at 11:13 PM

          KSW:
          I wasn’t saying that Ron was right or wrong, simply what occurred Most individuals have an innate sense of truth about many things, but that truth will prevail is not a rule written in stone. I have operated on many lies for a very very long time and am only recently recognizing just a few of them. With great effort and assistance. This has been my observation.
          Your path is different, that is why these conversations have been so fruitful for me.
          Mark

        • Chris Thompson  On November 16, 2013 at 12:46 AM

          MarkNR: Your path is different, that is why these conversations have been so fruitful for me.

          Chris: Each of our paths are similar and recursive yet different. When we try with a good heart, each of us learn from one another and from our mindful observations. I am learning from you. I’m of the opinion that enlightenment is short for self-enlightenment and can only occur by one person at a time.

        • MarkNR  On November 16, 2013 at 4:08 AM

          Similar to time being digital rather than analogue. You learn and observe, learn and observe, then CLICK. Things fall into place. Learn and observe, learn and observe, then CLICK………

        • MarkNR  On November 15, 2013 at 11:20 PM

          Vin:
          “The truth shall stay.” with continued efforts from You and I to sort it out.

        • Chris Thompson  On November 16, 2013 at 12:35 AM

          Vin: Truth has staying power.

          Ct: This assumption seems unnecessary. Maybe it is false. It should be enough to recognize that truth is relative, conditioned and impermanent. The idea that things should stay the same is an unproductive fixation. Is this a useful assumption?

          “Things change.” This is true but how relative, conditioned and impermanent is it? Is this a paradox? Maybe it is unhealthy to become fixated on “the truth.”

        • Chris Thompson  On November 16, 2013 at 12:42 AM

          Vin: The truth shall stay.

          Ct: Shall remain where? My answer: In that frame of reference. And to be clear I mean in that moment-place of space-time. Life seems to move on.

          We speak of moments as though they are discrete? Are they? If so, how are they discrete? In the macro existence that we experience, does it help to organize reality as discrete or as continuous? But does it matter whether quantum physics operates in a discrete or continuous mode? Or is this question begged and trying to force the issue between two choices which may not be laid out correctly?

        • vinaire  On November 16, 2013 at 9:33 PM

          When I look at science I do not see scientific truth getting altered, destroyed or made unworkable. Hubbard may have thought otherwise, but I don’t take him at his word. I do not see mankind to be as mean as Hubbard saw it.

          Truth lies in man’s capability to perceive it. That capability to perceive seems to have increased through the ages. So I am not so paranoid about losing truth that I would issue a “KSW” for it. Any research done in the field of spirituality should be out there as it is in the field of science. Such knowledge should be shared, discussed and researched further.

          Attempts like “KSW” are to own certain knowledge, and to discourage further research by others. It is an attempt to monopolize an area of knowledge.

          Vedas are still there. Knowledge from Hinduism and Buddhism is still there. Anybody can study and write their own commentary on it. It doesn’t alter or degrade that knowledge. Ignorance and misunderstandings are going to be there. But as long as original materials are there, the original knowledge shall also be there. Not only that, any improvements made in understandings shall also be there. This is fairly evident in the field of science.

          .

    • MarkNR  On November 15, 2013 at 11:55 PM

      Vin:
      You got it, You got it. Your own words, Your own path, similar destination.
      Life is infinity. I am a piece of infinity. One viewpoint of life. Each part of infinity is infinite and infinity itself. You are also yourself, wholly and completely, an individual. You are both 100%..That is why to harm others or make them less (cut their reach) you are harming yourself. This is primary to mass or confusions. This has been said before in other words, but when it really clicks, it changes ones life. It did mine.
      Mark

      • Chris Thompson  On November 16, 2013 at 12:49 AM

        MarkNR: This has been said before in other words, but when it really clicks, it changes ones life. It did mine.

        Chris: And so we continue!

  • vinaire  On November 15, 2013 at 9:07 PM

    Mark: “It is not the same as the competent and ethical direction of activities of an area or environment.”

    .

    There is no other way of defining competence or ethics, except through the elimination of inconsistencies.

    Evil would then be an activity that forces inconsistency.

    .

    • MarkNR  On November 15, 2013 at 10:28 PM

      Vin:
      I get what you mean. I was trying to put forth a descriptive of the difference in control and control as a purpose. I didn’t choose the best wording as I was a bit excited after seeing this and resolving at least part of the issue.
      I see what you are saying about “Evil would then be an activity that forces inconsistency.” Evil acts and intentions (place your definition here) produce inconsistencies and confusions just as false data produces conflicts which grow with increased experience. These basic purposes were formed long before evil or the thought of ‘anything wrong’ had ever been thought of. There were no conflicts, that came later. And there’s the rub.
      “A lower form of affinity was established.” is a vital part of this era to understand. (Will continue)
      Mark

    • vinaire  On November 15, 2013 at 10:34 PM

      Mark, you are my inspiration. I am simply putting it forward in my peculiar way. 🙂

      .

      • MarkNR  On November 15, 2013 at 10:57 PM

        Mindfullness is an absolute necessity in resolving this area for each individual. After reading your writing and the Stephen Mitchell’s Tao, I took another look at this area from a fresh perspective. Several more important principals came up that could help broadly. Will post when written up in an intelligent way.
        Thanks, I owe you much.
        Mark

        • vinaire  On November 16, 2013 at 9:36 PM

          I look forward to your writeups. You may post them on this blog. There is no “KSW” in force on this blog.

          .

  • vinaire  On November 16, 2013 at 10:03 PM

    L-11 theory is anchored on HC0B 21 Jan AD10, JUSTIFICATION. I am providing a link to the text of this HCOB so that it can be closely examined.

    https://vinaire.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/justification.pdf

    .

  • vinaire  On November 16, 2013 at 10:16 PM

    From JUSTIFICATION HCOB:

    When a person has committed an overt act and then withholds it, he or she usually employs the social mechanism of justification.

    We have all heard people attempt to justify their actions and all of us have known instinctively that justification was tantamount to a confession of guilt. But not until now have we understood the exact mechanism behind justification.

    Short of Scientology Auditing there was no means by which a person could relieve himself of consciousness of having done an overt act except to try to lessen the overt.

    .

    In my opinion,

    (1) A person commits an overt because of ignorance and confusion.

    (2) He withholds it because he is ashamed of his actions. This feeling of shame demonstrates that he has realized his mistake.

    (3) He employs the “social mechanism of justification” only when he feels threatened. Otherwise, he admits his mistake and takes action to correct himself.

    (4) In the society there is always the threat of being ridiculed and/or punished. This threat brings the mechanism of justification in play.

    Let’s take a look at what is there in Scientology Auditing that handles a person who has committed overts, and the underlying confusions were never handled.

    .

  • Nic  On November 17, 2013 at 7:19 AM

    Very good Mark NRII. I think these are
    PURPOSE PURI of Theta.
    GPM effetivi follows. Follows GPM implants.
    And Purposes of others.
    Where positions inc.1?
    Let us know of Thy research, thank you.
    Nic ARC infinity

  • vinaire  On November 17, 2013 at 7:38 AM

    From JUSTIFICATION HCOB:

    Some churches used a mechanism of confession. This was a limited effort to relieve a person of the pressure of his overt acts. Later the mechanism of confession was employed as a kind of blackmail by which increased contribution could be obtained from the person confessing. Factually this is a limited mechanism to such an extent that it can be extremely dangerous. Religious confession does not carry with it any real stress of responsibility for the individual but on the contrary seeks to lay responsibility at the door of the Divinity—a sort of blasphemy in itself. I have no axe to grind here with religion. Religion as religion is fairly natural. But psychotherapy must be in itself a completed fact or, as we all know, it can become a dangerous fact. That’s why we flatten engrams and processes. Confession to be non-dangerous and effective must be accompanied by a full acceptance of responsibility. All overt acts are the product of irresponsibility on one or more of the dynamics.

    .

    (1) When one realizes the wrongness of what one has done, one feels ashamed. One also feels the threat of being rejected and punished by those around him.

    (2) A confession to a responsible party acts to remove that feeling of shame and threat to some degree. The person feels that he is given a chance to redeem oneself, and he proceeds to do so.

    (3) But if the party, to which the confession was made, acts unethically and misuses the confessed data, then the “threat” is not removed, and no benefits come from that confession.

    (4) A person confessing does so because he feels a sense of responsibility. A contract is made that the person has acknowledged his wrongness and he would now be allowed to redeem himself without the threat of explicit rejection and punishment.

    (5) Any violation of this contract from either party would nullify the benefit of confession, and shall bring about untoward consequences. The key responsibility is not violating this contract by either party. The expression used in the JUSTIFICATION HCOB about “a full acceptance of responsibility” is quite vague and adds to the confusion.

    (6) Overts are NOT the product of some vague idea of irresponsibility. Overts are the outcome of specific instances of ignorance and confusion, which would have to be addressed and handled completely. If the person cannot do so by himself, he would need skillful guidance.

    .

  • vinaire  On November 17, 2013 at 8:49 AM

    From JUSTIFICATION HCOB:

    Withholds are a sort of overt act in themselves but have a different source. Oddly enough we have just proven conclusively that man is basically good—a fact which flies in the teeth of old religious beliefs that man is basically evil. Man is good to such an extent that when he realizes he is being very dangerous and in error he seeks to minimize his power and if that doesn’t work and he still finds himself committing overt acts he then seeks to dispose of himself either by leaving or by getting caught and executed. Without this computation Police would be powerless to detect crime—the criminal always assists himself to be caught. Why Police punish the caught criminal is the mystery. The caught criminal wants to be rendered less harmful to the society and wants rehabilitation. Well, if this is true then why does he not unburden himself? The fact is this: unburdening is considered by him to be an overt act. People withhold overt acts because they conceive that telling them would be another overt act. It is as though Thetans are trying to absorb and hold out of sight all the evil of the world. This is wrong-headed, by withholding overt acts these are kept afloat in the universe and are themselves as withholds entirely the cause of continued evil. Man is basically good but he could not attain expression of this until now. Nobody but the individual could die for his own sins—to arrange things otherwise was to keep man in chains.

    .

    (1) Withholds are NOT “a sort of overt act in themselves” as stated in the HCOB above. The source of withholds is the threat of punishment and rejection by others. It is this threat that the mechanism of confession tries to handle.

    (2) The very fact of withhold shows that the person is aware of his transgression, and wants to sort it out. This situation gets complicated when the person is right in his action but it precipitates the threat of rejection and punishment. When Copernicus discovered that it is the earth that goes around the sun, he feared rejection and punishment by the Church. He had to couch that discovery using words that did not offend the Church.

    (3) The following is FALSE DATA in the above HCOB, “… when he realizes he is being very dangerous and in error he seeks to minimize his power…” What Hubbard is referring to as “minimize his power” simply means, “withhold from acting further.” Of course, the person will withhold himself because, knowing the overt he has just committed, he is confused even more.

    (4) When the person is unable to handle his confusion, he may do other irrational things out of desperation.

    (5) Thetans are NOT “trying to absorb and hold out of sight all the evil of the world.” They simply want to get their confusion handled. That is bottom line.

    (6) It is pretty straightforward to understand that the source of any evil is ignorance, confusion and unresolved inconsistencies. The handling is pretty obvious.

    .

    • MarkNR  On November 17, 2013 at 12:19 PM

      Vin
      “(6) It is pretty straightforward to understand that the source of any evil is ignorance, confusion and unresolved inconsistencies. The handling is pretty obvious.”
      Mark
      According to my observations, quite true. Underlying ALL ABERRATION is confusion, lack of data, false data, inconsistencies.
      BUT
      Most individuals are not in a condition to handle their aberrations in the obvious, most basic manner. That is why tricks (most Scn. processes) to unburden one of some of his pain, confusions, inconsistencies in a mechanical way are needed and effective, IF ONE CONTINUES AND REACHES HIS BASIC CONFUSIONS. Otherwise, one has a temporary release, then experiences a loss as his basic inconsistencies creep back in. A significant problem for a great many Scientologists. These last two sentences are observations of EXTREME IMPORTANCE.
      For most, the artificial, invented, and enforced mechanics MUST be sifted through and understood before the basics can be handled. That is why I have said before, “THE GREATEST GUARANTEE OF SUCCESS IN ANY ENDEAVOR, INCLUDING ENLIGHTENMENT, IS THE ABILITY TO PUT FORTH LONG TERM EFFORT TOWARD A GOAL.”
      Slothfulness and spiritual improvement are inconsistent.
      My observations.
      Mark

      • vinaire  On November 17, 2013 at 10:16 PM

        When processes to handle unwanted conditions become too mechanical and are applied thoughtlessly, then harm results. We see that happening in the current Church of Scientology where people are leaving in droves.

        Tricks in most Scientology processes only get the low hanging fruit. They become harmful in the long run. So the point (1) of Keeping Scientology Working has been falsely declared as complete.

        A lot more research is needed to make Scientology universally workable. It is nowhere near that point. This truth needs to be confronted and acknowledged.

        I believe that much simpler methods can be worked out with the help of mindfulness to handle the overt mechanism.

        .

        • MarkNR  On November 18, 2013 at 7:10 PM

          Vin;
          Dianetics when done skillfully can be extremely helpful to an individual. When carried on too long, can validate and solidify the reactive mind. All methods of enlightenment must be done wisely and skillfully.
          Mark

        • vinaire  On November 18, 2013 at 9:52 PM

          Those conditional statements get me.

  • vinaire  On November 17, 2013 at 9:07 AM

    From JUSTIFICATION HCOB:

    In view of these mechanisms, when the burden became too great man was driven to another mechanism—the effort to lessen the size and pressure of the overt. He or she could only do this by attempting to reduce the size and repute of the terminal. Hence, not-isness. Hence when a man or a woman has done an overt act there usually follows an effort to reduce the goodness or importance of the target of the overt. Hence the husband who betrays his wife must then state that the wife was no good in some way. Thus the wife who betrayed her husband had to reduce the husband to reduce the overt. This works on all dynamics. In this light most criticism is justification of having done an overt.

    .

    (1) The burden here is the amplification of confusion due to the overt committed, and the desperation to handle that confusion. That desperation is worsened by the threat of rejection and punishment by those around the person.

    (2) The danger lies in the acts of desperation by the person that are not well thought out because of his confusion.

    (3) One of the acts of desperation could be an effort to reduce the goodness or importance of the target of the overt.

    (4) But this does not necessarily mean that all such efforts have an underlying an overt on part of the person. An effort to expose some evil activity could very well be genuine.

    (5) Therefore, to assert, as this HCOB does, that there is always an overt underlying the effort to reveal unfavorable characteristics of somebody. This is FALSE DATA. If a person is exposing the unfavorable characteristics of the Church of Scientology, it does not necessarily means that the person has overts against the Church.

    .

    • MarkNR  On November 17, 2013 at 11:31 AM

      From Justification HCOB
      “This does not say that all things are right and that no criticism anywhere is ever
      merited. Man is not happy. He is faced with total destruction unless we toughen up our postulates. And the overt act mechanism is simply a sordid game condition man has slipped into without knowing where he was going. So there are rightnesses and wrongnesses in conduct and society and life at large, but random, carping 1.1 criticism when not borne out in fact is only an effort to reduce the size of the target of the overt so that one can live (he hopes) with the overt. Of course to criticise unjustly and lower repute is itself an overt act and so this mechanism is not in fact workable.”

      I do not agree with everything that Ron wrote, but this part of the HCOB appears to address your point #4 and #5. You may say that, of this whole HCOB he spent only a couple of sentences on the disclaimer. Well, he was addressing a particular phenomenon and spent most of the time on the phenomenon. If you write a paper on sick cats, most of the paper is about sick cats with only a small mention of healthy cats, even though most cats are healthy.
      You and I may disagree with the principal of this HCOB, but the paper as a whole seems entirely rational.
      Mark

      • vinaire  On November 17, 2013 at 9:57 PM

        I had commented on this paragraph from JUSTIFICATION HCOB, but looks like I forgot to post it.

        This does not say that all things are right and that no criticism anywhere is ever merited. Man is not happy. He is faced with total destruction unless we toughen up our postulates. And the overt act mechanism is simply a sordid game condition man has slipped into without knowing where he was going. So there are rightnesses and wrongnesses in conduct and society and life at large, but random, carping 1.1 criticism when not borne out in fact is only an effort to reduce the size of the target of the overt so that one can live (he hopes) with the overt. Of course to criticise unjustly and lower repute is itself an overt act and so this mechanism is not in fact workable.

        .

        (1) So certain criticism have merit. The overt act mechanism ought to be criticized here as not a valid scientific principle. An overt is not necessarily a wrong action. Galileo saying that earth goes around the sun was a true statement, but it was an overt in the eyes of the Church. Galileo asserted this truth for the sake of science, and he had to suffer for it in the hands of the Church for going against the doctrine.

        (2) A criticism when ignored repeatedly may become random and carping, but that does mean it has no merit. Facts supporting that criticism may be suppressed. A valid effort to expose a criminal may be characterized as “reducing the size of the target of an overt” to blame the critic. This is exactly what Hubbard himself did in real life, and this is what the Church of Scientology has done routinely. So, I don’t think this HCOB lays down a workable principle.

        (3) Security checks in Scientology that apply this principle forcefully have been a travesty of justice, and has been quite harmful to people in general.

        Yes, there is justification but that justification is not always wrong, and it does not always follow some overt.

        So, I do not buy what this HCOB is trying to convince people of. This said principle is dangerous and is not as workable as it pretends to be.

        .

  • vinaire  On November 17, 2013 at 9:44 AM

    Hubbard used the JUSTIFICATION HCOB with the assumption that Scientology is absolutely right.

    Unfortunately, there are no absolutes.

    https://vinaire.me/2013/11/08/khtk-axiom-0-the-absolute/

    .

  • vinaire  On November 17, 2013 at 11:02 AM

    From JUSTIFICATION HCOB:

    Here we have the source of the dwindling spiral. One commits overt acts unwittingly. He seeks to justify them by finding fault or displacing blame. This leads him into further overts against the same terminals which leads to a degradation of himself and sometimes those terminals.

    .

    (1) There is no dwindling spiral here. It is the same overt continuing in the form of acts of desperation because the underlying ignorance, confusion, and inconsistency is not handled.

    (2) When there is blame and justification, one is simply looking at some unhandled inconsistency in the mind of the person “blaming and justifying.” This doesn’t necessarily mean that the person is wrong. He could be right!

    (3) Hubbard seems to be painting the picture that all efforts to criticize him and Scientology are suspect and the person doing so has overts. There is no such “law” as this JUSTIFICATION HCOB seems to imply.

    (4) Hubbard has been blaming psychiatrists and justifying his actions for doing so. Does the JUSTIFICATION HCOB apply to him too? Psychiatry has come a long way since the 1950s, but those facts (improvements) were conveniently ignored by Hubbard.

    .

  • MarkNR  On November 17, 2013 at 1:35 PM

    “The ability to detect differences, similarities, and identities.”
    Sometimes one sees outpoints and points them out. Sometimes one dramatizes his own aberrations and natters. Two different things that can appear similar. Both of our paths are leading us toward an increased ability to recognize which one is occurring in ourselves and others. That, sometimes a real problem exists which needs to be pointed out, is not an exception. It is a different circumstance that needs to be recognized.
    That one’s past O/Ws can adversely affect one in the present is a valid principal. Every bit of truth has been used to do harm by someone, Hubbard included. There are obvious errors in his tech on overts, but you yourself are actively working to improve it.
    I dream of the day when there are many auditors who can quickly recognize when a misdeed needs to be addressed or not. When a harmful act can be glanced at by a PC and be done, or if it actually needs to be written up and handed to another to get the intended benefit. When the basic inconsistency needs to be ferreted out or when charge only needs to be relieved for now. Independent auditors who have understood Hubbard’s truths and errors (along with other sciences of the spirit) and easily recognized the right thing to do for that individual at that time.
    Generally, when used skillfully and wisely, knowledge of O/Ws helps broadly. Confusions and inconsistencies is a basic part of this knowledge.
    Mark

    • vinaire  On November 18, 2013 at 8:17 AM

      We all want a person who is at peace with himself and all others around him. All inconsistencies are sorted out rapidly by the person. There is a fundamental consistency.

      How we achieve that, in my opinion, is by recognizing inconsistencies that exist in the processes that we have used to improve ourselves, and resolving them one by one.

      .

  • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 17, 2013 at 11:19 PM

    Hi dear V.. I am a bit late here with comments, but I will be coming back.. tonight I have things to do.

    • vinaire  On November 17, 2013 at 11:24 PM

      Dear E. I am enjoying your comments. I look forward to you coming back.

      • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 18, 2013 at 1:52 AM

        I be back if you [here is a bit of black mail] or any one else wont take my comments to heart , since they are just that.. in my reality words spoken are valueless. but it is my reality. 🙂

        • vinaire  On November 18, 2013 at 8:00 AM

          I am learning about manners now. I promise to take your comments more mindfully than ever.

          .

        • Chris Thompson  On November 18, 2013 at 9:14 AM

          🙂

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 18, 2013 at 12:44 PM

          you have impeccable manners and I have given up having one.
          now, what has changed your mind that from now on you will be mindful of my postings! what has triggered of your interest and belief that after all I might just know?

        • vinaire  On November 18, 2013 at 12:55 PM

          Manners mean to be mindful enough so that no unpleasantness occurs in a conversation. This is a tall order but I am going for it.

          Unpleasantness in communication = some inconsistency needs to be resolved

          This may provide an opportunity to learn more about human nature and this may help us make some advances over the Tone Scale, which I have hardly used.

          .

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 18, 2013 at 1:10 PM

          I never use it in the manner ”now he is at death…or antagonistic” I go by not so much what the person say but what ”energy” I experience while I am in communication.
          Words can be misleading when people talk since most of the time the valance is the one who is talking and not the entity.
          We experience that all the time but the mistake is being made in communication that we listen to the words, believe in them but they are seldom where the entity truly is.
          I have found this out while posting in Geirs blog.. I was continually told that I was not duplicating what was written.. and that made me realise I was responding to the “”REAL”” communication.. those energy which the ‘person” has put out toward me and those energies seldom match the content of verbal communication.

        • vinaire  On November 18, 2013 at 4:51 PM

          I guess lot of unpleasantness in communication comes from misduplication and misunderstanding. But the key is handling that misduplication and misunderstanding skillfully so there is no unpleasantness.

          .

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 18, 2013 at 2:13 PM

          I just written a whole post on the TS. and I got it erased by pushing the wrong thing!

        • MarkNR  On November 18, 2013 at 6:22 PM

          Elizabeth;
          “I just written a whole post on the TS. and I got it erased by pushing the wrong thing!”
          When I got my first computer I wanted to be a computer wiz. Now I just want to whiz on the computer.
          Mark

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 18, 2013 at 7:19 PM

          Computer because having one has opened up communication lines -blogging etc.. and I got lots of restimulation that means sessions!!!! cognitions by the hundreds over this past 3 years. Lots of bashing good times hehehe.. Even V and I killed each other a few times of course he will not admit that.. but he know I love him no matter what.. so that what counts ..

        • vinaire  On November 18, 2013 at 4:47 PM

          Aw shucks! Sorry to hear that. What is TS?

          .

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 18, 2013 at 4:52 PM

          tone scale

        • vinaire  On November 18, 2013 at 4:54 PM

          I would have loved to read that post. I still have to go back and read all your recent posts.

  • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 18, 2013 at 4:56 PM

    V … what it means ” Permalink”

  • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 18, 2013 at 5:09 PM

    I was writing the real tone of the person since it is there but hidden under the valance of behavior. LRH has explored that too but written a lot but not under that title.
    After all social behavior is not where the person is. That kind of behavior should be ignored at all times.. You see, because while posting in Geirs blog I did not “behave” properly, I swore, and just talked plain without any ”nice-nice” addition I was told off more than once that “You are not on OT, could not possibly achieved what ever you claim because you do not behave as on OT.
    You see, for those who have judged the behavior had hidden standard and that was how one should behave if that person has attained the claimed level.
    That kind of thinking pure none sense. You see it is totally off the wall way of thinking because any behavior is VALANCE BEHAVIOR.
    A SAINT behaves this way, a policeman behaves that way, a minister has to behave as it is required by his flock of. A OT should behave as a SAINT because etc..etc..etc..

    • vinaire  On November 18, 2013 at 5:23 PM

      This is exactly what I am learning under the subject of manners. How can I get my point across without causing unpleasantness?

      This is a whole new subject for me to explore. It is like multi-variable algebra. There are so many variables in the other person that one is dealing with. One has to juggle a lot of balls without dropping any.

      .

      • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 18, 2013 at 5:46 PM

        V…” How can I get my point across without causing unpleasantness””
        One cannot get around that one because one really never know what buttons one pushes=what restimulation one cause in the other person who is at the receiving end of the communication.

        • vinaire  On November 18, 2013 at 6:08 PM

          I have no idea how any research in this area is going to proceed. Maybe I would have to break my point down into infinite gradients that I want to get across. This has to be seen. Also, it would involve how to quickly dampen a restimulation if it inadvertantly takes place.

          .

        • vinaire  On November 18, 2013 at 6:09 PM

          The final test would be a sustained pleasant conversation with my wife.

          hahaha!

    • MarkNR  On November 18, 2013 at 6:16 PM

      Elizebeth
      “A OT should behave as a SAINT because etc..etc..etc”.
      Mark:
      A phenomenon I have observed many times but must remained unsaid inside the church. I have made many gains and insights during my journey but I am no saint by any means. I have a simple ‘opinion’ on that. Scn., at it’s best, can get one to perhaps 2 or 5% of the way to ones most desirable state. The rest must be done on one’s own as a sort of research project. In order to escape or rather handle all the foibles of this series of universes, one must MASTER every aspect of universes. And there is more beyond that.
      Your thoughts? I value your advice.
      Mark

      • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 18, 2013 at 6:44 PM

        Mark you sais 2 or 5%. my reality is the church auditing wont handle more than a fraction of one present. Here is my take on that
        .Example: one is an OT 1. runs the processes has a EP one big cognition the church now say.. that person is attained that level. DA??????? that person just had a tinny glimpse of what is there, one cognitions about the subject! No one has any idea just how many sides -reality-beliefs, agreements one has on one item.
        I had huge wins on all levels yet, I have worked on the communication what is more than 10 thousand hours.
        The church and the auditors don’t have a clue and that included LRH what is waiting for the solo auditor.. After 40 and I solo audited since 76 I still have items occasionally which totally changes the reality I had on the subject before.
        Example, I never looked at ”fame” before till 2 days back.. I have looked at important valuable and the minus side of things on 4 flows plus all the related considerations going with those but never the word ”fame” what is. I was blown away by how much charge it has contained=my realities what fame meant. and I have seen people and places and what people do to gain fame and the reason for such.
        people kill in order to gain fame even if just for a moment, since fame establishes that person in others eye-reality, in their universe that he is existing, has value and is important and that is a huge anchor solid valance one has gained. Fame having fame is a WINNING VALANCE and that valance will be used over and over in different lifetimes. So a killer will kill again because he will be known again . A singer will sing again etc.. etc..
        I have discovered things about auditing… solo auditing that no matter how much tech one has under their belt and know LRH’s words verbatim will never find out.
        Without solo auditing what one has learned is somebody else knowledge but cognitions which are the end product of the sessions are the pure undiluted knowledge one has.

        • MarkNR  On November 18, 2013 at 7:28 PM

          A quadrillion years is a long long long long time. An awful lot of water has passed under the bridge, and that’s just since water was invented. Ha Ha..
          Mark

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 18, 2013 at 8:09 PM

          Right, that must be a long time if one counts the years, I don’t.. since to me time do not exist and that goes for many other concepts.. 🙂 time having time, having past, having future, like or death these are just created concept..You must know that by now ..

        • MarkNR  On November 19, 2013 at 3:41 AM

          Eliz;
          I have found that, for me, it has been very important to establish the date and location of occurrences while sorting out my past. It establishes cause (an incident) and effect (incidents which followed as a result). Time and order of events was important at the moment these incidents occurred and has been necessary for me to straighten out the confusions. Past incidents are often very nebulous until I establish a location, at which point the details become much more clear. Clarity, to me is the opposite of confusion. This applies to the work I am currently doing. There are other methods of understanding which I have done where this is not the case.
          There were games which could be played over and over, hundreds of times where the date on my track was less important that the order of events during that particular game. There were also times when myself and my opponents would learn something during one run through a game and use that knowledge during subsequent runs. The date on my track then became important.
          There was a battle game where I had a partner that got killed several times. I had an affection for this ally and my opponent discovered that my tactics would suffer after my partners death. I ‘LEARNED’ to hide my affinities in the future. The order of events resolved this undesirable decision.
          Hope this helps to understand me a little better.
          Mark

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 19, 2013 at 12:34 PM

          Thank you Mark… The recreation of the track offers the greatest adventure any Entity can create because this time one has awareness and most of all the most important element which LRH has given is the confront.. When I realised without knowing what confront do one just floundering about but when one really understand its value now that is something. Oh we all have confronted before-faced situations in our games but we did not know the power-value it has.
          Fantastic… I cant find your email address please drop it off again. Thank You.

        • MarkNR  On November 19, 2013 at 10:34 PM

          Eliz.:
          MarkNR@hushmail.com

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 22, 2013 at 9:08 PM

          I have written to you but the mail has come back..

        • MarkNR  On November 22, 2013 at 9:24 PM

          To Elizabeth Hamre:
          marknr@hushmail.com

        • MarkNR  On November 22, 2013 at 10:01 PM

          Eliz:
          Perhaps you could send your address to Vin, He could send it to me and I could e-mail you.
          “Our lives are controlled by blips of static on slivers of glass” MNR
          Mark

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 23, 2013 at 11:23 AM

          endlesstringofpearls@gmail.com

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 24, 2013 at 12:49 PM

          MARK I have written to hushmail… it did not come back. Sorry Vin for using your blog as a communication board.. I hope you don’t mind it to much!

        • vinaire  On November 24, 2013 at 1:00 PM

          Elizabeth, no problem!

        • MarkNR  On November 19, 2013 at 4:08 AM

          Eliz;
          Viewing and understanding the complexities (invented concepts, considerations) have exposed the simplicities for me. Not fully understanding the artificial mechanics in the past has enslaved me to them.
          I enjoyed your info on ‘fame’. That relates to my ‘effort to be funny’ in a group. I will look at that in the future.
          I found out some time ago that some common areas of case that didn’t seem to be a problem for me were being avoided by me due to past pains or failures. Dancing is an example. I didn’t consider it important, so, no problem. I tracked it back to an individual whom I respected who was acting in a suppressive manner. Turns out dancing is kinda fun.
          Mark.

      • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 18, 2013 at 6:58 PM

        You have good reality, I know I am evaluating but that is part of the communication.

        • MarkNR  On November 18, 2013 at 7:22 PM

          Eliz;
          Thanks, I have a practical viewpoint on enlightenment, if that is possible.
          Mark

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 18, 2013 at 7:29 PM

          Yes.. it is.. but have you had a session what Enlightenment really is?
          Happy to continue the comm. and what I have done is all in the blog.. every step.. I am not very found of husmail. but you have my email address and you can have the phone number too if you care to call. I am off all lines so I don’t need to hide my e-mail. or phone number.

      • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 18, 2013 at 7:00 PM

        Are you a well trained auditor if I may ask that? I do not know you.. but I don’t know many scientologist so please don’t take it badly.

        • MarkNR  On November 18, 2013 at 7:17 PM

          Eliz.;
          Purchased Cl-5 a few years ago at the Nashville org. I want to sharpen and correct my skills at an Independent training center soon. I have been working on my own recently, as my posts have indicated. Have been a Scientologist since I was 12, 1969, but have noticed many outpoints, especially since ’84’.
          Mark

        • MarkNR  On November 19, 2013 at 4:14 AM

          Eliz;
          I was delivering the purif. away from the Org a few years ago and I got this hushmail account in order to encrypt and send PC reports.
          Mark

  • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 18, 2013 at 5:42 PM

    I understand.
    I wonder what is your reason you are looking into scientology.. searching for what is write or wrong in LRH’s work.
    In my reality we cant take the reality what that work is from those who has not fully qualified By that I mean, had all the auditing side which includes solo auditing of course and the other side, have total understanding of all materials because one not only has taken all the courses but studied everything what ever he has written.
    From that person I would except their reality, but again it would be only theirs and not my conclusion.
    If I would really wanted to understand his motives, behavior than I would study read his words and conclude for self.
    Any ones OPINION who has just a bit of knowledge here and there, VIN.. my dear … using your own word” is just looking through many layers of filters” they just judge from what they see and definitely don’t have the fact clearly.
    Filters wont allow the person to see other than what they own belief allow them to see.
    If the person who passes of information which is effected by his occluded thinking will not give correct information… therefor that information I would call “opinions, assuming only what is there ” Of course this is my reality.

    • vinaire  On November 18, 2013 at 6:19 PM

      My reason for looking into Sciuentology is to see what Scientology processes I can fruitfully convert into KHTK exercises. In a KHTK exercise mindfulness replaces the e-meter. Also most KHTK exercises may be done solo.

      I must take apart visible inconsistencies in Scientology processes to truly understand what works in them. I am experimenting with False Data Stripping right now. You shall see the results soon.

      As I said earlier, I want to arrive at a reality that is independent of the filter of self. I think that it is possible to get there.

      It has nothing to do with agreement. It will have to do with mindfulness as described here.

      https://vinaire.me/2013/09/05/the-12-aspects-of-mindfulness-revised/

      .
      .

      • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 18, 2013 at 6:22 PM

        Removing the filters would bring wonderful results.. I know that from the work I have done.
        I am very interested how you will accomplish such a results.

        • vinaire  On November 18, 2013 at 6:26 PM

          It would not be just me. It would be all of us together.

          We shall all be going up together… not in smoke, I hope. 🙂

          .

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 18, 2013 at 7:05 PM

          Now you really got me! 🙂 Baby should I pack a bag? 🙂 Or naked will do? 🙂

        • vinaire  On November 18, 2013 at 9:43 PM

          Just as you are is fine! 🙂

          .

  • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 18, 2013 at 6:19 PM

    Right… I am watching my sisters married life, her husband has become a very quiet man by now. after 36 years of wonderful togetherness!!! Seldom expresses any opinions… It is not easy for two persons to live under the same roof.

    • vinaire  On November 18, 2013 at 6:23 PM

      Has your sister become quiet too? I am curious.

      • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 18, 2013 at 6:56 PM

        NOOOOOOOO…. she has finished full OT7 in the same year as I have in 76. She never looked back and never solo audited. but ”read” books by those who have read books by those who have read books and become enlightened! So my sister reached the stage when she too know it all. She corrects me on everything and explains what I really meant what I said! 🙂
        She know it all. and she believes since I still have a session when something comes into my space like ”fame” concept has that I am in REALLY BAD SHAPE because I still need auditing.
        She has concluded, that I am insecure, full of fears, lonely and don’t have a life… hehehe… she judges where she is at.
        Those who have fears which is every human since being human is just a bunch of considerations what is a human should be, behave etc.. haven’t got a clue what it is like not having fears… and when one do not have fear than one can not be insecure-lonely and not having life.

        Vin… dear bug… you see those are considerations humans have.. One cant be without fear and have still those considerations.

      • vinaire  On November 18, 2013 at 9:47 PM

        Your brother-in-law seems to become enlightened.

        .

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 18, 2013 at 10:43 PM

          He is!! He is one of the most wonderful gentle persons I have met.. and he never had auditing..

        • vinaire  On November 19, 2013 at 5:28 AM

          Good for him.

  • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 18, 2013 at 7:11 PM

    V… I have expressed In Gears blog my admiration for your willingness to look.. There are millions of critics out there but very few who is going beyond being the critic, but you have put to use what you have learned-experienced and move on..
    Well, that is a lot.. great deal in fact.. My reality of course. 🙂

  • vinaire  On November 18, 2013 at 10:12 PM

    From JUSTIFICATION HCOB:

    Scientologists have been completely right in objecting to the idea of punishment. Punishment is just another worsening of the overt sequence and degrades the punisher. But people who are guilty of overts demand punishment. They use it to help restrain themselves from (they hope) further violation of the dynamics. It is the victim who demands punishment and it is a wrong-headed society that awards it. People get right down and beg to be executed. And when you don’t oblige, the woman scorned is sweet-tempered by comparison. I ought to know—I have more people try to elect me an executioner than you would care to imagine. And many a preclear who sits down in your pc chair for a session is there just to be executed and when you insist on making such a pc better, why you’ve had it, for they start on this desire for execution as a new overt chain and seek to justify it by telling people you’re a bad auditor.

    .

    (1) I believe that people simply want to clear up their confusion and their unwanted condition. Rest is just an appearance.

    (2) People who think in terms of punishment will see others demanding to be punished, when all they want is to be relieved of their confusions.

    (3) It is the resolution of confusions that ultimately brings relief to a person.

    (4) It is only when the person doesn’t get the relief that he blames the auditor, and rightly so, because he was promised a relief.

    (5) You cannot blame the preclear who trusted the auditor to relieve him from his suffering.

    (6) Here Hubbard seems to be justifying his lack of ability to handle all cases.

    .

    • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 18, 2013 at 11:03 PM

      V…. do keep it in mind that LRH did say it “Take what ever real for you and use it and flush the rest.” I know I have read that so have my sister because that we talked about that.
      LRH did have too many irons in the fire.. unfortunately he has not fallowed up his major finding, how simple it is blowing the charge.
      I believe he wanted which would be much faster and that way one would not have to spend one’s whole life in the auditing chair.. He too was looking for the magic wand… but that magic wand if would be used would erase much more than the unwanted charge.
      ALL CASES CAN BE HANDLED WITH ORNARY REGULAR SIMPLE auditing:confronting.

      • vinaire  On November 19, 2013 at 5:44 AM

        Yes I am accepting what is workable in Scientology and flushing the rest.

        Hubbard was full of wonderful ideas but he was not very scientific about them.

        The principle here is that one needs to look at all the relevant data about a situation to resolve it. Thus, one needs to look at what he feels he has done wrong and therefore, withholding from even himself in that situation.

        Rest of Hubbard’s ideas on this subject, such as, “carping criticism = the critic has overts” are questionable. Such ideas were used by him to manipulate others.

        It is the application of these questionable ideas that have harmed many cases.

        .

    • MarkNR  On November 18, 2013 at 11:35 PM

      My favorite definition of a cognition: “The resolution of a confusion.”
      I realized that a few years ago. We align quite often.
      Mark

  • vinaire  On November 18, 2013 at 10:23 PM

    From JUSTIFICATION HCOB:

    When you hear scathing and brutal criticism of someone which sounds just a bit strained, know that you have your eye on overts against that criticized person and next chance you get pull the overts and remove just that much evil from the world.

    .

    The above is not always the case so it is a false datum. One must always look at both sides of a situation to uncover all the facts, and should not one-sidedly blame the critic for overts.

    .

  • vinaire  On November 18, 2013 at 10:33 PM

    From JUSTIFICATION HCOB:

    And remember, by and by, that if you make your pc write these overts and withholds down and sign them and send them off to me he’ll be less reluctant to hold on to the shreds of them—it makes for a further blow of overts and less blow of pc. And always run responsibility on a pc when he unloads a lot of overts or just one.

    We have our hands here on the mechanism that makes this a crazy universe so let’s go for broke on it and play it all the way out.

    .

    (1) It is ok to get the preclear to put these overts and withholds down and observe closely if it brings relief to the person. If yes then the purpose of this auditing action is achieved and those writeups should be destroyed immediately.

    (2) But if it didn’t bring relief to the pc then the process did not work. Maybe there is some validity to what the pc is complaining about. A reasonable fact-finding effort must be made to verify what the pc is talking about.

    (3) Hubbard is posing certainty where that certainty is about a questionable “principle”.

    .

    • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 18, 2013 at 11:07 PM

      Overt are not something that should be written up as something special.. they were just actions which have happen in the past and had lot of charge on them that means the person still had that incident un-confronted. But so what? There were millions of other incidents there too needed to be sorted out by the same PC.

      • vinaire  On November 19, 2013 at 5:51 AM

        It is OK to write up one’s overts. It helps one look at them in a systematic and complete fashion.

        The key principle is to look at things as they are, and not as they seem to be.

        Once one has looked at all his overts and withholds and gotten relief, the write-ups have no value and need to be destroyed.

        .

  • vinaire  On November 18, 2013 at 10:35 PM

    Now I am done looking at the core “principle” on which the L-11 is based. I have found that this “principle” has holes in it.

    Now I shall be looking at the actual auditing actions taken as part of L-11.

    .

  • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 18, 2013 at 10:55 PM

    LRH.. “Scientologists have been completely right in objecting to the idea of punishment. Punishment is just another worsening of the overt sequence and degrades the punisher. But people who are guilty of overts demand punishment. They use it to help restrain themselves from (they hope) further violation of the dynamics. It is the victim who demands punishment and it is a wrong-headed society that awards it. People get right down and beg to be executed. And when you don’t oblige, the woman scorned is sweet-tempered by comparison. I ought to know—I have more people try to elect me an executioner than you would care to imagine. And many a preclear who sits down in your pc chair for a session is there just to be executed and when you insist on making such a pc better, why you’ve had it, for they start on this desire for execution as a new overt chain and seek to justify it by telling people you’re a bad auditor.”
    WEEEEEEEEEEELLLLL.
    As you can see for your self this above is nothing more than blowing wind. Not much point paying attention to that.
    Yes, it is good to have the OVERTS OFF.. but what really changes the case is getting to know ones -the selfs withholds.. I would like to post here something from my blog about Withold only if you are interested to read it of course.
    I have pulled off Overst and of course that changed how my realities and any cognition will do that..and it is fantastic to understand what Overts one commits but not all nattering has a Overt base! Good heavens.. noooooo

    • vinaire  On November 19, 2013 at 5:33 AM

      You are welcome to post here from your blog.

      .

  • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 18, 2013 at 11:12 PM

    I believe that LRH was dramatizing his case and his overts were bothering him a lot” had attention an them.. so that means he was keyed into those overts while he was creating.
    Every person who ever live or lived on this Planet have EQUAL AMOUNT OF ACTIVITY UNDER THEIR BELT. as HE HAD BUT NOT MORE OR NOT LESS.
    We are creative very powerful Entities who love drama bigger the better.. we love to create and with that Experience at the same time.

    • vinaire  On November 19, 2013 at 5:56 AM

      I would not speculate about Hubbard’s case using his own theories because one will then find a lot of complex inconsistencies.

      Simply look at Hubbard’s accomplishments. He accomplished a lot, but many of those said accomplishments are questionable, and certainly not complete.

      Here is how I look at Scientology.

      https://vinaire.me/2012/10/03/a-look-at-scientology/

      .

      • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 19, 2013 at 2:01 PM

        I do not speculate about LRH’s case.. I know when one is talking about items which only can exist as part of his case… Please give a bit of credit for a solo auditor who has confronted the MEST.. with that I mean ALL the considerations-beliefs-agreements which holds the MEST in place and those are who believe in any of those thoughts that they are real… existing and therefore they having a body and life.
        My realities are from experiences and not learned words from others writings and beliefs.

        • vinaire  On November 19, 2013 at 4:28 PM

          Of course, you do not speculate about LRH’s case. Your realities are definitely from your experiences.

          .

      • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 19, 2013 at 3:17 PM

        I DO have reality on LRH’s work and I have all ready sorted out what is workable and what is not.
        I have taken apart Everything what he talked about and systematically I have taken it apart and examined it and not just part time I have worked but I have worked every day all these years.
        By now I have sorted out all the unworkable and workable, I don’t have doubts what works and how effective his TECH is.. I do not assume, guess any longer.. I looked at not only Scientology but the MEST universe which is compiled from Thoughts, beliefs, considerations and glued together by agreements and it is served up an a large platter which is FEAR IT SELF..
        You have ignored the content of my posts I am OK with that since you are not the first and wont be the lost person who do not understand its meaning.

        • vinaire  On November 19, 2013 at 4:30 PM

          Of course, you do have reality on LRH’s work and you have already sorted out what is workable and what is not.

          .

  • vinaire  On November 19, 2013 at 6:33 AM

    The theory of L-11 says,

    (d) That when an Implant to Harm gets keyed in, the person has the choice of dramatizing it (i.e., committing the harmful act), or, suppressing the dramatization (and himself). But in any event, because the person has an impulse to do something evil or harmful, he tends to consider himself harmful or evil and thus tends to restrain himself generally.

    .

    (1) Hubbard assumes that there is an implant to harm in the beginning. He apparently got that datum from studying his own and other people’s cases.

    (2) In any such research one starts out with the interpretation of one’s own experience and then verifies it by examining other people’s experiences.

    (3) However, this can lead to wrong theories if one is not being mindful. One can easily introduce one’s own biases if one is not being scientific.

    (4) Where did such an implant came from? Hubbard blames psychs. Who gave this implant to Psychs? Hubbard doesn’t go there.

    (5) What is the mechanism of such an implant? For it to be an implant there must be an intention underlying it. Is there really such an intention? What is the makeup of that intention? Hubbard doesn’t go there.

    (6) Hubbard’s idea of INTENTION depends on beingness. How does beingness come about? Hubbard doesn’t go there.

    (7) Hubbard’s idea of BEINGNESS is “assumimg a viewpoint” and before that “a decision to be”. Well, how does such a decision come about? Hubbard doesn’t go there.

    (8) Hubbard assumes CAUSE making the decision to be (please note that he is assuming an intention there on the part of Cause). So we have a circular reasoning here.

    (9) Hubbard is basically introducing the arbitrary of INTENTION in his theory without defining it. People buy it because they see intentions within them without understanding it.

    (10) But what is the mechanism of INTENTION? Not fully understanding it, the manipulation begins.

    .

  • vinaire  On November 19, 2013 at 6:47 AM

    The theory of L-11 says,

    (e) If the person dramatizes the Implant to Harm, he commits overts and becomes more susceptible to the Implant being restimulated and dramatized again in the future.

    .

    Hubbard is basically saying that “evil intention is implanted” without explaining the basis of it.

    Essentially, this amounts to saying that some men are basically evil.

    How can you eradicate that evil intention without scientifically understanding the underlying mechanism? Just sayin that it is implanted gets one nowhere. There is no knowledge of the mechanism provided here.

    .

  • vinaire  On November 19, 2013 at 6:47 AM

    The theory of L-11 says,

    (f) Subsequently, the person will probably form an evil purpose of his own and commit overts as a result. These overts form a chain on that evil purpose. There is usually one such evil purpose and chain of overts on any case, or one major one (most dramatized).

    .

    Hubbard’s theory is just a rehash of God and Satan.

    There is no science there.

    And that means that there is no mindfulness underlying Hubbard’s theory of L-11.

    .

  • vinaire  On November 19, 2013 at 7:04 AM

    It all boils down to the fact that there is inconsistency, and no amount of theorizing will handle it.

    When there is an inconsistency, such as, evil intention, one simply needs to look at it mindfully until it resolves.

    The 12 aspects of mindfulness are as follows:

    https://vinaire.me/2013/09/05/the-12-aspects-of-mindfulness-revised/

    .

  • vinaire  On November 19, 2013 at 7:08 AM

    The question then becomes,

    What in Scientology helps one look systematically and mindfully?

    The answer to that question will help one salvage what is workable in Scientology. The rest of Scientology can simply be discarded.

    .

  • vinaire  On November 19, 2013 at 8:45 AM

    The L-11 process heavily stresses on C/S Series 37R, which essentially talks about the reason behind OVERRUN.

    We shall next be looking at this subject of OVERRUN, which, as we shall discover, surprisingly points to the fundamental error in the approach of Scientology auditing itself.

    .

  • vinaire  On November 19, 2013 at 1:31 PM

    From C/S Series 37R:

    The usual definition of OVERRUN is “gone on too long” or “happened too often”. This causes high TAs to occur.

    .
    From Technical Dictionary:

    OVERRUN, 1. an overrun means doing something too long that has engrams connected with it which means an engram chain with too many engrams on it being restimulated by life or auditing. Hence overrun. If this overrun persisted unhandled eventually the pc would be overwhelmed and one in theory, would have a low TA. (HCOB 16 Jun 70) 2 . gone on too long or happened too often. (HCOB 3 Jun 71) 3 . means the pc came out of the bank and the pc went back into it again. (Class VIII, No. 2) 4 . continuing a process past the optimum point.(Abil 218) 5 . running past a free, floating needle on any type of process.
    (HCOB 2 Aug 65)

    .

    In my opinion, overrun starts the moment the preclear is no longer looking at the answers presented by the mind.

    The overrun mechanism is,
    (1) The auditor asks a question.
    (2) The mind does not present an answer.
    (3) The auditor keeps repeating the question.
    (4) The mind does not present an answer because the answer is not available.
    (5) The preclear does not recognize that there is no answer available. Thus the F/N is missed.
    (6) The preclear starts to get desperate for an answer. Thus, the TA starts to go up.
    (7) The overrun phenomenon sets in.

    Underlying an overrun is the failure on part of the preclear to recognize that there was no answer available to the auditing question. Thus, he never F/Ns. The situation gets worse as the preclear gets desperate and starts to dig and speculate for answers.

    .

  • vinaire  On November 19, 2013 at 1:48 PM

    From C/S Series 37R:

    In examining a few failures on using “overrun”, I have found that underlying this there is a more basic principle.

    When a thetan believes something is “overrun” or “has gone on too long” or “was done too often” he is expressing only a symptom of another mechanism.

    The truth is A THETAN CAN DO ANYTHING FOREVER.

    .

    In my opinion, this “truth” offered by Hubbard is a false datum.

    A Thetan is presented in Scientology as the core beingness of a person. Hubbard does not provide an objective definition of Thetan. The idea of Thetan as static does not make sense because there is no absolute static. Any idea of static is relative. The person ends up defining thetan in terms of his “self”; and that serves as a “stable datum”, but it is all relative.

    One may postulate that “A THETAN CAN DO ANYTHING FOREVER.” But that does not make it an absolute truth. One may postulate anything but then one is faced with inconsistencies.

    .

  • vinaire  On November 19, 2013 at 4:42 PM

    From C/S Series 37R:

    To Audit “overruns” is auditing toward an untruth. Thus if carried on as a process it is really an out of ARC Process.

    That which makes a thetan believe something can be overrun is the EFFORT TO STOP or THE EFFORT TO STOP HIM.

    The effort to stop something, when generalized, becomes a “stop everything” and IS the entrance point of insanity. This has been known since 1967. But I did not earlier connect it with the OVERRUN phenomenon.

    .

    “Overrun” is a situation where the answer to an auditing question is not available. All the auditor can do to bring relief from overrun is to acknowledge this situation, because this is what the preclear is trying to tell him.

    Hubbard is making this situation much more complex than it really is. Of course, if you keep asking a person a question that he does not have answer for, it will drive him nuts.

    .

    .

  • vinaire  On November 19, 2013 at 4:56 PM

    From C/S Series 37R:

    When a thetan has a long chain of efforts to stop or a chain of efforts to stop him (mixed up with protest, of course, and shame, blame and regret and other human emotion and reaction) he accumulates ridges. These make mass.

    This mass makes the high TA.

    .

    Thetan (self) is basically a matrix of vectors associated with each other in cause-effect relationships. These vectors may be defined in terms of desires and considerations. These vectors are fluid and wavelike. But as resistance comes about to their natural motion, such as, asking for something which is not there, then mass is generated and the thetan starts to get fixated.

    See https://vinaire.me/2013/11/14/questioning-scientology-knowledge/#comment-13989

    When there is resistance to motion (inertia), mass and location is created. This is covered by KHTK Axiom 7:

    https://vinaire.me/2013/10/24/khtk-axiom-7-a-location/

    .

  • vinaire  On November 19, 2013 at 6:23 PM

    From C/S Series 37R:

    In truth it is not possible to kill a thetan, so therefore any effort to stop a thetan would only have partial success. So the chain is also full of INCOMPLETES.

    An incomplete cycle of action causes ARC Breaks.

    Thus an OVERRUN is full of MASS and ARC Breaks!

    .

    A thetan is like a wave. When it is stopped it becomes located like a particle.

    Overrun is caused by repeatedly asking a question for which the mind is not presenting any answer.

    .

  • vinaire  On November 19, 2013 at 6:46 PM

    From C/S Series 37R:

    As you possibly recall from the material of about 1955 the one process you must not run on a pc is “Look out of here and find something you can go out of ARC with.” This sends him into a dwindling spiral.

    The common denominators of a bank are OUT OF ARC and STOP!

    Thus if too long a list of “What has been Overrun” is required to obtain the first BD F/N item the listing action may very well restimulate much more bank than can easily be handled on some pcs.

    .

    Out of ARC means harmony and consistency is being disrupted. Therefore,

    Out of ARC = Inconsistency
    Stops = Lack of answers

    As life gathers inconsistencies and unanswered questions, it starts to lose its fluidity and becomes very constrained.

    What will work here is unstacking of the mind as inconsistencies and unanswered questions present themselves.

    .

  • vinaire  On November 19, 2013 at 9:44 PM

    From C/S Series 37R:

    As these are also the pcs with very high TA, if one lists for overrun and runs much too long a list to get his first BD F/N item, the pc can be heavily restimulated.

    Listing errors or upsets can make this, then, too uncomfortable a proceeding for a pc and should NOT now be done.

    And if it doesn’t work on some pcs in the hands of some auditors, it must therefore be cancelled. Any recommendation on VIII Course to do it is cancelled.

    The theory is correct as given on the VIII Course. There, a few items were intended. But now some very long lists have come up on some pcs which made the pc uncomfortable and were hard for the auditor to handle. Thus the BD F/N item overrun list must not be done.

    .

    Overruns over time are very difficult to handle with Scientology listing processes. The best action is to prevent overruns from occurring in the first place. Training preclears on the 12 apects of mindfulness will go a long way in preventing overruns.

    The data on the 12 aspects of mindfulness shall be found on this blog.

    .

  • vinaire  On November 19, 2013 at 9:53 PM

    From C/S Series 37R:

    CONTINUE is then the Reverse Action to overrun. Continue equals Survival.

    The REVERSE to overrun therefore can be run as a process, to wit, “What would you be permitted to continue?” or “What could be Continued?”

    This however would not be very successful. Thus the listing action is recommended as the process to use.

    .

    Hubbard did not fully recognized the mechanism for overrun.

    Knowing that mechanism the correct approach would be to find the instance when the mind did not come up naturally with the answer. The preclear then did not recognize this and went into speculation.

    .

  • vinaire  On November 19, 2013 at 10:24 PM

    From C/S Series 37R:

    The list questions for the above are:
    If A stopped: “What could you continue to do to another?”
    If B stopped: “What could another continue to do to you?”
    If C stopped: “What could others continue to do to others?”
    If D stopped: “What could others continue to do to you?”
    If E stopped: “What could you continue to do to yourself?”
    If F stopped, list “What could another continue to do to others?”
    If G stopped, list “What could others continue to do to another?”

    The “Most stopped read” would be one that really froze the needle or caused it to rise or caused the TA to RISE such as 3.5 to 3.6.

    The lists would be listed to a BD F/N item, Cog, VGIs. Actually the list could be listed forever. But the pc will get an item he likes and that F/Ns. He is then given his item. One does NOT null such lists unless one has really goofed.

    ALL the lists A, B, C, D, E, F and G can be listed. To get a TA DOWN you list the flow that sends the TA UP. Then reassess for the next that sends the TA up, etc.

    .

    To get the “TA down” one can simply get the person to make a list of questions which has bothered him a lot, and to which he has been unable to get a satisfactory answer to. Then have him rearrange the list such that the most basic question is on the top.

    Now have him mindfully contemplate over that question with or without the help of a KHTK guide.

    .

  • vinaire  On November 20, 2013 at 6:30 AM

    From Tech Dictionary:

    JUSTIFICATION, explaining away the most flagrant wrongnesses. Most explanations of conduct, no matter how far-fetched, seem perfectly right to the person making them since he or she is only asserting self-rightness and other wrongness. (HCOB 22 Jul 63)

    .
    From English Dictionary::

    jus·ti·fi·ca·tion, 1. a reason, fact, circumstance, or explanation that justifies or defends: His insulting you was ample justification for you to leave the party.

    .

    Basically, justification provides an explanation.for some conduct. The Scientology meaning implies that it is used to assert rightness even when one is wrong.

    It boils down to stating a viewpoint. That viewpoint could be rational or irrational in a relative sense.

    One may argue the rightness or wrongness of a justification. But the important action would be the examination of the underlying inconsistency and determining the facts.

    It is incorrect to assume that the person providing the justification has done something wrong. One must examine all the facts related to the situation.

    Mindfulness allows for no assumptions.

    .

  • vinaire  On November 20, 2013 at 6:54 AM

    Here is a nice description of the actions taken on L-11 Rundown:

    NEW VIEWPOINT RUNDOWN

    The rundown was originally developed to resolve extreme cases of psychosis or people in psychotic breaks. The first step in such a case would be rest, food, even mild sedatives to get the person destimulated enough to audit.

    The first auditing actions undertaken might be only a GF or CS 53 to further cool it off, then the rundown goes for blood. CS Series 37R is assessed and handled per the issues. While the EP (stated) is an FN’ing flows assessment, if there were to be a big cognition on the subject of continuing or something to do with that that showed it no longer to be a problem or real particular lack of interest, in going further with it, it, would be considered to be complete. It also seems to have a marked influence on TA position and has been known to help resolve chronic low TA’s.

    Following 37R, the person is given a copy of HCOB 21 Jan, 1960, JUSTIFICATIQN and asked to read it, and write an essay on how it has applied (or may have applied) to his/her life. This is a restimulative action and helps to open up the case even further.

    At this juncture. the pc is asked for an IMPLANT TO HARM which is then Date/Located and should result in blows. Following this, GENERAL OW is run. If the person is stuck in some psychosis, an EVIL PURPOSE will “explosively” blow into view. If a purpose doesn’t, it is run to a general EP.

    If no Ev Purp comes off in O/W, you would then L & N for it. The following actions are routinely undertaken with ev purps encountered at this level and above: It is Date/Located to blows and then a 2WC – WHAT PROGRESS HAVE YOU MADE IN ATTAINING THAT PURPOSE?, (or a variant of this) is done to blow off further considerations and free the purpose up to leave. These are the routine steps of NEW VIEWPOINT.

    In a later HCOB, CS’ING FLAG RUNDOWNS, an expanded step was added which is: a) CAUSE PA (Program Assessment), CAUSE RA (Results Assessment) and then a Date/Locate to blows of each of the 37R items. This completes New Viewpoint as a rundown.

    While other organizations know to us sell this as a minimum of two intensives to complete, it is a fairly short action which averages less than half an intensive. I think it’s an excellent “set-up” for CAUSE and in C/S’ING FLAG RUNDOWNS, is given as the first of these rundowns. Arbitrarily, in that issue, they are done: NEW VIEWPOINT, EXTROVERSION and then CAUSE, although each has its own results and can be done entirely separately from the others.

    .

  • vinaire  On November 20, 2013 at 7:15 AM

    The core of L-11 seems to be blowing from the case THE IMPLANT TO HARM.

    (1) The very idea of “implant” assures the person that he is not the cause of any intention to harm that is originating from within him.

    (2) This is essentially a trick to bypass justifications from the person. Because such an intention was implanted by others, the person would not have to defend himself for harboring it.

    (3) The person would then give out the intention to harm that he has felt within himself.

    (4) The origin of the intention would then be located to the satisfaction of the person.

    (5) This is like handling all harmful intention that one has felt toward others to its basic-basic.

    (6) This must bring a big relief to the person.

    .

    I am sure that this can also be handled more completely by oneself through mindful contemplation. Please see

    https://vinaire.me/2013/09/11/contemplation-2/

    .

  • vinaire  On November 20, 2013 at 1:24 PM

    I would like to see a person be able to blow the implant to harm (if it is there) on his own using KHTK approach. In my opinion, this would require:

    (1) Training on mindfulness per EXERCISE: Technique of Mindfulness. This exercise may be repeated anytime to polish up one’s mindfulness skills.

    (2) Training in letting the mind unstack itself per EXERCISE: Being There. This exercise may be repeated anytime to polish up one’s skill in letting the mind unstack itself.

    (3) Experience with spotting and resolving inconsistencies per EXERCISE: Contemplation. This will prepare a person to handle inconsistencies relating to intention to harm.

    (4) The procedure to blow the implant to harm would be:

    ….. (a) Look up the definition of HARM in a dictionary, and then contemplate over each definition. Let the mind unstack on the concept of harm.

    ….. (b) Look up the definition of INTENTION in a dictionary, and then contemplate over each definition. Let the mind unstack on the concept of intention.

    ….. (c) Consider what would an INTENTION TO HARM be. Contemplate over this consideration. Let the mind unstack itself on this consideration.

    ….. (d) This may done to a point when some persistent thought, emotion or impulse has just left, though this may not always be possible.

    ….. (e) Repeat this procedure until one can BE THERE comfortably with the consideration “intention to harm.” One shall then fully understand all aspects of “intention to harm” on a first-hand experiential basis.

    .

    • vinaire  On November 20, 2013 at 1:40 PM

      I am doing this process. I was moved by the first instance that came to my mind. It is something that happened about 50 years ago. I happened to locate that person recently but the communication did not go easy.

      I had to send an email to that person asking for forgiveness, though that is not required by this process.

      .

    • vinaire  On November 20, 2013 at 1:44 PM

      One needs a quiet place to go through this process of contemplation. One can have eyes open or closed. One may be still or moving around. One may refer to the dictionary, wikipedia, and other references as necessary as the contemplation progresses.

      .

    • vinaire  On November 21, 2013 at 5:44 AM

      Here is an interesting subject that came up. Can one’s desires be looked upon as “intention to harm” if they are intended for the satisfaction of self only with no concern for others?

      Well, since that has come up I shall contemplate on that also.

    • vinaire  On November 21, 2013 at 5:45 AM

      This KHTK contemplation seems to go deeper and wider than anything that I experienced in Scientology.

      .

    • vinaire  On November 21, 2013 at 5:47 AM

      Any intention to exploit another has also come up here for contemplation, with all its consequences.

    • vinaire  On November 21, 2013 at 5:51 AM

      Sexual desires are quite suspect here.

    • vinaire  On November 21, 2013 at 5:54 AM

      Here, the concept of “earlier similar” of Scientology seems to be replaced by “allowing the mind to unstack itself naturally.”

    • vinaire  On November 21, 2013 at 5:58 AM

      For a Scientologist this may appear to be similar to doing TR0 with a certain contemplative process guiding it.

  • vinaire  On November 20, 2013 at 5:05 PM

    This approach will get the low hanging fruits quickly. One may then go to another process with KHTK approach and get the low hanging fruits on that process, and so on. After some time when one returns to the first process, more low hanging fruits may now be available.

    Thus, one deals with low hanging fruits only while going through a large set of processes again and again.

    One may use all Scientology Grade 0 processes as a set, and go through them many many times, until all possible fruits are gotten on all Grade 0 processes. Then one may move to the processes of the next grade.

    I shall be putting a KHTK Grade 0 exercise together based on this concept.

    .

  • Chris Thompson  On November 21, 2013 at 7:07 AM

    Your post is for me an excellent breakthrough for KHTK. A lot of good can be done with this. It is a genuine step toward improving our environment polluted with shame, blame, and regrets. Scientology confessional auditing is too harsh by orders of magnitude. It has been rudely abused and deliberately misused to harm, but the underlying motivation to help another confront and to embrace the uglier aspects of their past is a useful and I think an important part of any successful mental health technology. I’ve wanted to discuss this for a while but it is a sore subject when questioning Scientology.

  • Chris Thompson  On November 21, 2013 at 7:22 AM

    Regarding Forgiveness:
    It can be hard to embrace who, what, when and where we have harmed or destroyed. When we do, it is natural to seek forgiveness. Forgiveness has two faces. One is the healthy side of taking responsibility for the harm which we have done. The other side is not so pretty and is a cascaded layer of justification, an attempt to lessen our own feelings of guilt. Mindfulness dictates that we wrap our arms around our past and embrace all that we are or ever have been which in my own experience is evil as well as good. It is not an easy process but I believe it is an important part of the path to Nirvana.

    • vinaire  On November 21, 2013 at 8:16 AM

      There is no need to ask for forgiveness unless one is naturally moved to do so.

      .

      • Chris Thompson  On November 21, 2013 at 8:23 AM

        That is correct. And one cannot always right the wrongs of the past. But one can apologize and try to align their future going forward with their epiphany. Also, apologizing sincerely when warranted creates interference patterns and diffuses the condensation of wrong in the mind of the offended and also of the offended. This can be a good thing for both.

        • vinaire  On November 21, 2013 at 8:25 AM

          Yes. Without sincere apology there cannot be any forgiveness.

          True forgiveness ultimately comes from within oneself.

          .

        • Chris Thompson  On November 21, 2013 at 8:32 AM

          We could say that mindfulness by steps includes forgiveness by steps. For the mind that is mindful, forgiveness is a realization.

        • vinaire  On November 21, 2013 at 8:36 AM

          Nice one!

  • Chris Thompson  On November 21, 2013 at 7:23 AM

    When I tell someone “I am sorry,” I am specific and clear as to what I am sorry for without any “if’s,” and I do not ask forgiveness as I leave it to the harmed person’s own mindfulness as to what to do with the apology that I have presented. Often there are still ripples of consequences for our past actions whether done decades ago or minutes ago. Mindfulness is a mechanic that mentally moves us out of our past debilitating guilts. This is healthy and will bring a relief. Mindfulness also brings us fully into awareness of harm that have done and suggests that we embrace the consequential ripples of our acts, which may be uncomfortable at best or worse might dictate a commensurate act of contrition.

    • vinaire  On November 21, 2013 at 1:46 PM

      When there is mindfulness all around we shall gain a great deal of efficiency in whatever we do.

      .

  • Chris Thompson  On November 21, 2013 at 7:25 AM

    In my opinion, both Scientology and Christianity (the two religions with which I am familiar) twisted and degraded this process. Scientology ruined this process by prosecuting an individual each time he makes mistakes or errors, and Christianity by demanding one “ask forgiveness” which makes the process about the perpetrator’s comfort rather than about the perpetrator’s responsibility.

    • vinaire  On November 21, 2013 at 1:48 PM

      Both subjects do not follow their own recommendations. There are inconsistencies built into them.

      .

  • Chris Thompson  On November 21, 2013 at 8:09 AM

    I am regarding life not as a static but as The Process of Space-Time.

  • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 24, 2013 at 12:53 PM

    Hi guys… question: Since space and time but mostly time is a made up consideration, a concepts so keeping it on mind you believe that ” life” =all the concepts=thought, agreements are static to?

    • vinaire  On November 24, 2013 at 1:04 PM

      I see space and time as aspects of motion.

      MOTION => SPACE + TIME

      In my model, space and time do not exist by themselves. They exist only as aspects of motion.

      .

  • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 24, 2013 at 1:49 PM

    Space what space is called is energy in the thin-invisible form Now when one places heavier energy pieces=solid objects into that that space distance from each other than one assume that there is space between those objects.
    Now someone invented the CLOCK =the time machine which in fact not measures the ”time’ actually the clock do nothing at all by it self and never have and never will in the future.
    The Clock is a machine and I do not need to explain to you how it works.
    Objects move in the invisible energy field different speed… that speed depends on the size of the objects and the different motions =movements of that invisible energy field in which those objects float or placed-stacked up… whatever.
    One can ”TIME” those movements an clock machine: and come to the conclusion just how much those hands moved on the face of the clock and say

    ”from A to B that object has taken to move 1 HOUR” That hour means simply that the hand=indicator arm of the clock has moved from one number to the next number. THAT MOVEMENT IS CALLED TIME HAS PASSED!
    There is no Time it self as a object, Time, having Time is a assumption,
    That goes for space too, While one is in the Physical U. One will not SEE -FEEL emptiness-static- void. Those concepts are made up in order to describe different state of energy masses.
    🙂 Now if you already have the same viewpoints than I just wasted ”time” writing this.. By that I mean: while I was writing objects moved within objects.:)

  • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 24, 2013 at 3:57 PM

    The above reality has come from auditing-experiences of the P.U. in the form of cognitions.
    I have not studied anything about the science of space =matter energy. I had only 10 years of schooling and that include 2 years of pastry baking; I have waitressed and cleaned houses for making the living. and been a house wife. I do not need to question if auditing works since I know from experience that it do it will give the promised END P.. if one applies the TECH long enough by that I mean covers every stage of beliefs-considerations-form of thoughts of selfs and others and all the agreements -the reasons why those existing in the first place.

  • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 24, 2013 at 4:19 PM

    I my reality conclusions are not the real knowledge which base is a first hand experience.
    Conclusion of ideas comes from comparison of other guessing-assuming ideas and assuming that it s right because it ”feels good” have the right sounding because after all others have said that too.. so it must be true than.
    In Auditing one do KNOW that one do not assume what happens but one experiences those incidents.
    I Know that lots of bad auditing outcome has brought on lots of bad experiences for many, but I only can sujest-recomend that Get some from a very reputable auditor and finally find out how real those incidents are what others talking about.
    Tell me what one could lose by having sessions? Nothing, but gaining one more experience and having those are the links which is one calls life here.
    Just because Having few bad experiences in ones ”life” do not give reason not to continue having more. Example… I am sure not all meals you have eaten in the course of your life time was culinary delight.. yet you had eaten again and again.. oh.. you say that is not the same… but it is… just different experience… by now you know that all experiences have equal value. 🙂
    So Dear.. get a first hand experience with a good auditor and explore the universe which you have created but 99.999999% of that creation has been forgotten

  • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 24, 2013 at 5:32 PM

    Also do keep in in mind that immediate judgement of anything is filtered down… your words: seen through many filters, therefore the true knowledge of anything can not be known.
    But how you come to the conclusion when un-stacking that subject that there are no more layers… no more filters in existence which occludes the true experience?
    I understand you are taking apart things in order to see it” clearly” and that process you call.. un-stacking, I call it -confront .
    So far you have not mentioned that how you know there is no more filters.. Please tell, how you can be sure of that and what is the indicator you experience while you have examined the ”last filter”

    • vinaire  On November 26, 2013 at 10:16 PM

      As long as there are inconsistencies there is something to be resolved, and better clarity to be attained. I have no way of knowing when all inconsistencies will be gone because absolutes are unattainable.

      .

      • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 26, 2013 at 11:40 PM

        Right you are, it is impossible to run out of inconsistencies when one is in communication with any other person, since others pictures-reality do not belong to self therefore one always can find that something is wrong, not OK, it is a lie, not correct, because one always compare what others are saying to ones beliefs and judges from the self’s believe viewpoints. It is impossible to see arrive to the same reality without having agreement. By the time one agrees to something there are many layers of filters one sees through.. so where is the truth in that, in having agreement?

  • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 24, 2013 at 6:47 PM

    MARK…. fear is a item which is the outcome of ”I might lose something” which has values.. One has to erase all that one holds ” valuable”. fear will vanish..
    Interesting subject “value” and of course one has to confront the opposite side of value which is ”worthless”. But each of the above considerations have many different meanings=similar words and those concepts to has to be confronted.
    I was not looking for ”fear” when It has vanished for me but for weeks on end I was looking at values what are the reasons they have because valuable to me.
    Example: having a body, life, roof over my head, friends, car, money, voice to speak with, eye sight, hundreds and hundreds of other things I have confronted which I held valuable.
    I also looked at what others thought was valuable for them.. Do you know even ”sickness” has value?? in FACT IT IS A HIGHLY PRICED commodity!
    LIFE : having one is very valuable… cognitions will pour from auditing those items. Of course, it has a bit more to what I did but I have given the general Idea how I have eliminated FEAR from my universe.

    • MarkNR  On November 25, 2013 at 7:16 AM

      Eliz:
      I have not looked into fear as an individual subject. There seem to be several other areas attached to fear but it seems to resolve as the attached area is resolved. Fear of body pain for self and others faded from importance with running engram chains in this universe. Fear of loss of possessions is a broad area which is slowly resolving. Fear of loss of ARC which I consider valuable seems to span my entire existence but has lost some of the charge it had. Fear of being found out, exposed after hiding, discovered for what you are, what one has done, crosses many other emotions. When one starts taking real responsibility for whole track, it must be done carefully to prevent caving in. Seeing a picture of what used to be you 2200 years ago, killing a few people can be interesting, but when you know that it was really YOU that raped and killed and maimed thousands, it is different. Skilled assistance is sometimes required to push through to a full EP on many things. Coming up to present time, knowing that you are a far better being than when you started the session is vital.
      I consider your input valuable. Hope some of my data is worthwhile to some others.
      Thanks
      Mark

      • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 25, 2013 at 7:47 AM

        ONE OF THE REASON THE TRACK EXISTS because it has great value.. value is having-ness, a treasured item.. also they are anchors. The memory it self is a HAVING-ness it exist because it has value- the information it contains is a must to survive—hehehe– that is a belief which one of the largest lies we have talked our-self into. I erased all values.. there is none left and with that the needs and the wants the yearnings, the must have, the wishing, the desires were gone too.

      • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 25, 2013 at 7:53 AM

        Mark… I don’t know if you have read it in my blog but to me the Universe is existed because I had ARCB’s ..something existing because there is no reality and if there is no reality than there is no understanding and because of those two in place how could one love something and have open communication? People have nothing more than those ARCB’x and those made their Universe a solid place.

  • vinaire  On November 25, 2013 at 8:10 AM

    In my opinion space and energy are two different concepts. They should not be confused with each other. They may be shown as related to each other in a systematic way. But they should not be presented as the same thing.

    Clear definitions are nececessary to communicate what we mean clearly. Please see

    TRAINING: Looking at Knowledge

    .

  • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 25, 2013 at 1:09 PM

    Thank you Vinaire.. Humans with eyes don’t see what is in space and space is different energy which I can not be seen with the eyes… My reality.

  • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 25, 2013 at 1:11 PM

    I write from experience…

  • vinaire  On November 25, 2013 at 1:15 PM

    If people start using their own definitions for words, precise communication is going to be impossible.

    We have to use the same language to understand each other.

    .

    • vinaire  On November 25, 2013 at 4:58 PM

      Communication is the most important activity. It is through communication that we can help each other.

      .

  • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 25, 2013 at 5:18 PM

    Here is where I need to leave off from future commenting in your blog because I have my reality and I need to express what I know the way I know it..
    I am a individual and beside that I do not have the same command of the English L as you AND THE TOP OF THAT which you don’t seem to understand it is a impassible task to achieve for every one to have the same reality on the same words.. Our universes are very differently created and you will never know what ”black cat” looks to me and I will never know how you would be ”seeing” the same cat. Just because we would describe the same cat how it looks we will never know the other persons reality.
    Thank you for the invite , have fun.

    • vinaire  On November 25, 2013 at 5:31 PM

      Do you have an ARC break?

      Sorry, I couldn’t help asking that. I had no intention to invalidate you. We communicate as best as we can. 🙂

      .

      • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 25, 2013 at 5:49 PM

        Yes, we have a reality difference and the knowledge of Wikisis a compiled knowledge by very knowledgeable person.. the best on this planet and I think they are fantastic bunch or people. But not likely any of them had any auditing and I had nothing else beside auditing As you read I had minimal amount of education and my realty what I know ALL OF IT IS COGNITIONS… PURE UNDILUTED UNALTERED KNOWLEDGE WHICH HAS NOT BEEN FILTERED THROUGH THOUSANDS OF FILTERS. Vin darling you old bean this is it for me… take me as I am but please do understand there is no more to Elizabeth.. all filters are erased.

      • vinaire  On November 25, 2013 at 5:55 PM

        I do not agree with Hubbard that if two realities are different then there cannot be in communication.

        If two realities are different, such as, the Christian ideology and Buddhist wisdom, then the fact is that we are looking at inconsistencies in a big pool of knowledge.

        One can look at those inconsistencies and discuss them a little at a time to avoid any overwhelm.

        .

      • vinaire  On November 25, 2013 at 6:00 PM

        I believe that the toughest inconsistencies can be discussed if people apply the following policy:

        Discussions and what needs to be avoided

        .

  • vinaire  On November 25, 2013 at 5:44 PM

    I do not think that I have created this universe. I am in no league with God.

    .

  • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 25, 2013 at 6:36 PM

    HEHEHE.. what you see, what you feel, what you know is your creation! and I am not much for fallowing others foot steps.. I been walking on my own for a long time! I have no idea by now how I could possibly to be any help with my comments… you tell me.. that might help out.

    • vinaire  On November 25, 2013 at 6:51 PM

      It is perfectly ok with me for you to walk in your own footsteps. I can have other realities on my blog. I have no problem with it as long as people follow the Discussion policy.

      Discussions and what needs to be avoided

      I had tough time on Geir’s blog because he did not follow the discussion policy.

      .

  • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 25, 2013 at 8:37 PM

    I too had been guilty of the same… but I have to admit I had fun getting it and giving it.. but after that was no longer fun since I have seen I stepped on toooo many toes.. I am not making excuses here and I know you are not asking for it.. it was part of the game.

    • vinaire  On November 25, 2013 at 9:28 PM

      Yes. You are right that it was a different game on Geir’s blog. Here, on this blog, the game is that we all are on the same side, and on the other side are puzzles, not knows and ignorance that we are trying to resolve together.

      Self or selves are not in the picture unless they become puzzles themselves.

      .

  • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 25, 2013 at 11:24 PM

    Sounds good to me… good game…

    • vinaire  On November 26, 2013 at 5:54 AM

      I am going to see if “mindful wordclearing” as laid in the following process can be made standard KHTK approach.

      PROCESS: The Intention to Harm

      In fact, I am going to guide a good friend of mine through this process this Thanksgiving weekend to see if there is an Implant to Harm, which can be comfortably addressed.

      .

  • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 26, 2013 at 1:07 PM

    I have found what you call mindfulness and I have finally understand what you want others to accomplish with the processes. Yes, I can see great gains to be had. This process puts one into the PRESENT TIME in the NOW.
    Just look at things as they are by eliminating any other addition = assumptions -considerations=thoughts : their meanings, just be there and do nothing. When that is achieved one can see what truly is front of the person. It means the person is now totally separated from the “”bank” in other words key=out of it.
    IN Scientology I have taken a short course it title was ”Observing the obvious.”‘
    SEE what is there and no more.
    Meditation if it is done will achieve the same:pushes away the aberration and allows one to be in the present time: and experience nothing more than what is there what one experiences in that moment.
    Auditing do the same with one big difference it eliminates all the confusing layers once and for all NOT JUST TEMPERARLY but for ever and there will not be a key-in ever again.. That is what I have been doing for the past 40 years and I have achieved to be in the NOW experience without filters and there is no key-in.

  • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 26, 2013 at 1:37 PM

    . V… I been writing about the topic of ” NOW”” what IS for years. In the NOW… in the fraction of the moment there is nothing… but nothing… not even a ”thought” since a thought not part of the NOW. it is already a adition:a filter to the moment.
    When one is in the NOW at all times: these of course only terms to describe what is since the NOW can not be described.” When one is in the NOW one do not even have a experience because ”experiences” are already outside or the NOW.. EXperiences a continuum — extention of energy flow and that is already not in the NOW but belongs into the P.U. since it can be measured, and most of all it is a created experience and that is already outside of NOW..

    • vinaire  On November 26, 2013 at 1:46 PM

      That sounds fine to me.
      Energy = verb.
      Mass = noun.
      Motion = space and time.

  • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 26, 2013 at 1:51 PM

    You are questioning scientology processes, well, I have used the auditing technology of LRH’s creation and I am, what I have achieved in 40 years is the very proof that the auditing TECH. works if it is applied.
    But few hundred hours or even few thousand of hours will not erase all the accumulated beliefs one has stored.
    What you read in the blogs of ex-scientologists is that the TECH do not work etc… etc.. It works but there is much more work needed that those few thousands of hours spent confronting in session. That amount of session hardly scratches the surface what is sitting there, stored away.

    • vinaire  On November 26, 2013 at 1:54 PM

      We need to isolate what excactly works.
      Workablility also depends on how long it takes to work.
      Some appraches can work much faster than others.

    • MarkNR  On November 26, 2013 at 2:47 PM

      Some may say “how can that person still be such an SOB after running a hundred chains and implants about harmful intentions.” Well, there are thousands left unaddressed. A good metaphor may be that when one puts ointment on a hangnail and it heals up, one still has the gout, indigestion, a headache and maybe even cancer. Chemotherapy still doesn’t cure the hangnail. A guy may realize why he screams at his children and is freed from that, but he may still steal from work and get drunk every night.
      The quantity of case to handle is tremendous. The number of decisions you have made and forgotten defies arithmetic.
      One may be using (arbitrarily) 1% of his ability. Scn. may be able to get you up to 2 or 3% of your potential. A tremendous improvement. But that still leaves you 97% a..hole.
      It will be a long haul. I believe well worth the effort. As Ron once said, ‘it took half an eternity to get in the shape you’re in.’ (approx) Think that’s a long time, look ahead, now there’s quantity. I have time and nothing better to do.

      Mindfulness teaches me that when I see someone steal some money, I don’t say to myself “He’s no good, he’s a piece of crap, he’s worthless”, or even “he’s a thief”. I say to myself, “he stole some money”, Pure present time observation. I may later evaluate occurrences and make conclusions, but that is later. See what you see while you’re seeing it. Obnosis. Being in present time.
      Mindfulness.
      Mark

      • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 26, 2013 at 3:00 PM

        Mark; I say to my self ” “he stole some money”. Right… you see that but you have judged all ready that he has stolen that money!. In the NOW one would see = movements of energy but not judging that action…when judging is done it is done already through existing filters.

        • vinaire  On November 27, 2013 at 1:17 PM

          Judgment is relative. A person, who is not aware of his filters, judges without knowing it. But when becomes aware of the filter he also becomes aware of being judgmental and ceases to use that filter. But he still may have other filters judging for him and he may not be aware of them.

          So, how does that become rid of one’s filters, Elizabeth?

          .

      • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 26, 2013 at 3:17 PM

        Mark… judgement is valuing something.. measuring coming to conclusion if it is good or bad… how self will be effected by that item.. Conclusions are coming from comparison of similar… and that is still assumption.. seeing through many filters.
        Yes one must confront take of many layers of filters in order experience the pure-ness the moment of Now. and one do judges while one is on the Path. but cognitions having it.. contains no judgement. Congnitions-realizations are the pure form of knowledge which do not contain any MEST related thoughts-considerations and agreement with others.

        • vinaire  On November 27, 2013 at 1:35 PM

          How does one get rid of filters that judge?

          .

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 27, 2013 at 2:53 PM

          by removing few million filters=beliefs which holds the person …keeps that person looking through his own beliefs. Long as one has “”belief”” that person Judges from that viewpoint.

        • vinaire  On November 27, 2013 at 9:27 PM

          But how do you remove just one filter? What procedure do you employ?

          .

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 27, 2013 at 9:42 PM

          Simply looking at the item till I realise its meaning. but never ever have found that item has originated here, but earlier and earlier again. Like a chain.. one looks at one link examine it what is without any addition-judgement-assumption when that is done the next chain link will be examined the same way.. than the next…. etc.. etc.. with each examination one removes a filter how the self has seen that item till now… and on the end when all the filters are removed [chain links] than one has a realization ”why” it was created in the first place!! and that realization one removed many filters and one gained a pure form –undiluted knowledge awareness about self-universe- and other beings too.

        • vinaire  On November 27, 2013 at 10:13 PM

          Thank you. That is powerful.

          .

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 27, 2013 at 10:43 PM

          V. dear friend.. the problem was that you did not gotten a good auditor while in the church.
          You see, many of the auditors don’t let the person do what I written above. I was very lucky, my first auditing was outside of the church but of course he was a member.. He audited me on the basic assist, Life R. you see, I also had to learn all the words, my English was not that good those days and he was there teaching, helping with the demos etc. Than he sent me to the Mission to take the Communication Course.
          BUT!!!! I already went back experienced past life incidents because he pushed me to go earlier similar made me confront every link of the chain and he did not let the session ends till I had VGI’s and cognitions!! He was a fantastic person and ethical auditor!
          You see, this is the reason I recommend auditing because it is a adventure..oh yes in some session one has difficult time to face that filter and let it go but no matter how hard any session was the cognition made up for everything.
          At first sessions tend to be heavy but later when one realises that nothing but nothing can hurt one, that there are no monster to get you than one really starts to love those sessions. Each one brings new adventure, one recognises figures from the past.. friends and enemies… one faces battles, and dies in those wonderful battles, one finds lost loves, hidden secrets, and knowledge pours in.. pure undiluted knowledge without filters..
          One no longer looks for answers outside because one realises that the only answer one needs is that self already has and in session one can find those.
          Simple things, like why that dark cloud up there is so formidable looking.. ?? you ask the cloud and you get on answer.. Very simple. One can open up ones own universe simply asking the self and the answer will come.. Of course this is how the solo auditor works. One need to take few courses to have that skill.
          When I said millions of filters are removed in fact more than that… much more…

        • vinaire  On November 28, 2013 at 5:19 AM

          Eliz: “V. dear friend.. the problem was that you did not gotten a good auditor while in the church.”

          Vin: This I call being judgmental. Sorry! but this is the kind of thing you yourself object to.

          .

        • vinaire  On November 28, 2013 at 5:24 AM

          Eliz: “You see, many of the auditors don’t let the person do what I written above.”

          Vin: Is this piece of TECH missing in Scientology then? Why is this inconsistency so widespread?

          .

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 28, 2013 at 11:07 AM

          right you are it is judgmental .. so is all of my writing -communication and every other persons on this planet. When I say ”dear friend” that to is born out of judgement… so is we are having a good day or bad day.. What is called ”judgmental is the type of incoming communication which we do not like, we don’t feel comfortable with in other word the takes away-lessens our belief, makes us feel smaller etc. Now the ”dear friend”’ or you are looking well, you are brilliant -smart ” counts as a compliment and it is desired-wanted-needed because why? but in the long run they are born out of judgement. Yes, I did not like those remarks my self but in the last few years they were the very reason I was posting in blogs to get those evaluations because I was looking for different viewpoints ”stimulations’ ‘ or as you call something to take apart -look at closely. Those comments were like being bull-baited and had removed immense amount of filters because of them. Those evaluations-judgements are the pointers.

        • vinaire  On November 28, 2013 at 5:40 AM

          Eliz, thanks for descrbing in detail what you do in auditing. Do you apply the following points of mindfulness?

          1. Observe without expecting anything, or attempting to get an answer.
          2. Observe things as they really are, not as they seem to be.
          3. If something is missing do not imagine something else in its place.
          4. If something does not make sense then do not explain it away.
          5. Use physical senses as well as mental sense to observe.
          6. Let the mind un-stack itself.
          7. Experience fully what is there.
          8. Do not suppress anything.
          9. Associate data freely.
          10. Do not get hung up on name and form.
          11. Contemplate thoughtfully.
          12. Let it all be effortless.

          .

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 28, 2013 at 11:15 AM

          Totally!!!!!! IF IT WOULD BE ANY OTHER WAY AUDITING WOULD NOT WORK!!!! IN session one seats and doing nothing but confront experience for the very first time one sees that experience what REALLY IS WITHOUT ANY FILTERS!!!! Without any lies, additions.. one sees the bare act what that creation was made for!! For the first time see it in the light of truth. and that is as-ising… the lies don’t hold it there any longer don’t make it more or less what really is. Yes.. in that moment when one finally sees that incident as it was meant to be it is erased.

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 28, 2013 at 2:34 PM

          V….. when one is confronting one do not hold up a list and check it down point by point if it is done right. Confronting is.. being there and face it as is.. and I truly believe that those who haven’t a clue what is auditing about than they are the last persons on Earth who should be questioning if Scientology works because Scientology principals are based on its auditing technology. Oh there is lots of garbage also mixed in but one should be able discard the unworkable-not needed and get on using what it work.

        • vinaire  On November 28, 2013 at 6:09 PM

          If somebody does not have a clue what auditing or mindfulness is all about, then I feel that if they can only understand it then what a wonderful tool they will have to improve themselves. So, I am always in favor of explaining what auditing/mindfulness is whenever the opportunity arises.

          Mindfulness requires very little training. It is a matter of developing a discipline. Once one has developed that discipline, one can run the whole Scientology Bridge by oneself. I recently developed the following process from L-11 process of Scientology.

          PROCESS: The Intention to Harm

          My first application of it on Chris produced a very good result in a simple, easy going, one-hour session today. Chris can now continue with this process on his own to get more out of it.

          .

        • vinaire  On November 27, 2013 at 1:36 PM

          Are you not judging when you feel offended?

          .

      • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 26, 2013 at 3:45 PM

        Mark.. my sister Ava is full OT 7 we did all out OT levels at ST Hill in 76. Since than she never received or have done solo auditing. But over all these years she has judged me and told me over and over that I must have some huge issues, huge bank, really aberrated, being in bad shape, not doing well, have lots of problems, insecure, low tone… etc etc etc.. if I would just once listen to her judgement of me and stopped auditing where I would be now?
        Others opinions do not matter but they cause great re-stimulations and those are the material one handles in session. What others do to me is what I have done to others and that is the only reason one KNOWS that what ever that is good or bad..
        I had huge cognitions because I have confronted what other said or done to me.. Good thing to be judged being put down, being told that one is nothing. a low life a aberrated SOB… great material.. I been fishing for those for years ever since I have realised their value.. the value is a cognition. 🙂
        You see my sister was right I did have all those things she said.. HEHEHE.. but she can only know what I have from judging from the same mass she is in. 🙂

        • MarkNR  On November 26, 2013 at 10:51 PM

          Hello Eliz:
          Back in 84-85, My self and a few others had a chat with (officially) Solo NOTs completion #2 in Atlanta. He was a cabinet maker, I don’t remember his name. During the conversation, someone asked if he wanted to do any ‘L’ rundowns. He said “NO, there’s nothing left, it’s all gone, nothing there to go over, handle.”
          At the time I had a total of 3 or 4 hrs of formal auditing and maybe 10 hours of self analysis. I had been reading LRH for over 15 yrs and I think I had a pretty good concept of the principals of Scn. I immediately recognized this as a very foolish statement. With what I know now, I see that was a VERY foolish statement.
          All the processes beyond Science of Survival, such as those described in Handbook for PCs, History of Man, for example, had been pushed beyond Solo NOTs due to the believed Body Thetan problem and a few particular implants. Thought, Emotion and Effort aren’t even addressed in any quantity until OT-8. He did say that he had signed up for OT-8 prior to it’s release, I’ll give him that. Boy did he have a surprise in store. Hope he didn’t cave in after coming off his high.
          The point I’m trying to make is one that I made earlier about the quantity of stuff to handle. Ron made a very true statement, that “All postulates are aberative.” EVERY DECISION that you made and then forgot lowers your ability to think clearly, accurately, and rationally. EVERY time you made up your mind on something, it locked you in to a particular line of thinking, with little or no ability to change it. Even when one fully erases a chain of engrams, in actuality, it is a temporary release, waiting to be restimulated when related lines of thought are brought up. Even when one reaches a very basic understanding of a principal that reveals a bit of truth, he must scan over a few hundred related incidents to fully clear up all the related confusions.
          Don’t feel too bad. Once one gains the ability to easily see his past, the need for it lessens and lessens. As one gains the ability to change his mind, in present time, it gets much easier and faster. But still, one must think long term. What are you going to be doing 1000 yrs from now. Would 1 or 2 hundred yrs of honest effort have been worth it? I think so. My life is much much better for the work I have done. Life is really fun and I’m making it better for myself and those around me.
          Several sciences of the spirit besides Scn. have info that is helpful in gaining wisdom and happiness. But one must at least get up to the point where one can accurately recognize, for the most part, what is true and what is not. The inability to accept data in a mindful manner is an aberration. Most of us have learned that from Vin. and other sources, and gone on to observe it for ourselves. But conversely, the inability to recognize truth, to be a dilettante, is equally aberrated. The ability to recognize wisdom will come with increased wisdom.
          My final point is that life can be much better but the single greatest prerequisite is effort. On the other hand, the effort itself gets more and more fun.
          The adventure awaits.
          Mark

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 26, 2013 at 11:49 PM

          Mark… “”Don’t feel bad.”” care to tell me the reason you have written that? Is it there because you are feeling bad about something or you have written it indicating that I feel bad about something. Somehow I miss the point of your last post outside of what LRH has said. I got that clearly.

        • MarkNR  On November 27, 2013 at 1:22 AM

          Eliz:
          Sometimes I don’t explain myself fully. I meant (almost in jest) don’t feel bad about the quantity of things to cover and the amount of time it will require. It’s just a drop in the barrel compared to your past and not even that compared to your future. And it gets more fun as you go along.

        • MarkNR  On November 30, 2013 at 4:21 AM

          Eliz:
          Is your sister Ava still happy, able and healthy?
          Mark

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 30, 2013 at 4:40 AM

          yes.. to all, she has advanced over the years.. doing fantastic.

        • MarkNR  On November 30, 2013 at 4:49 AM

          Eliz:
          I am very glad that you two have been spared many of the travails that have befallen many who have done the ‘new’ OT levels later in the church. It seems that the enforced SEC checks and OT preps said to be done for monetary gain for the church have screwed a lot of people up.
          Mark

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 30, 2013 at 5:25 AM

          I believed that.. yes the power of the money corrupted.

    • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 27, 2013 at 12:58 PM

      As I have mentioned the TECH works and you ignore that statement I made..

      • vinaire  On November 27, 2013 at 1:27 PM

        I have no idea what you mean by “TECH works”. What TECH are you talking about?

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 27, 2013 at 2:49 PM

          LRH’s auditing TECH.

        • vinaire  On November 27, 2013 at 9:24 PM

          There is lot of TECH under that heading. So, I am not sure what specifically you are talking about.

          .

  • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 26, 2013 at 1:57 PM

    grammar is not my item. I have no clue about the sentences how they have to be put in order to be perfect.. most of all nouns or verbs what they are beyond my need to understand. They do not belong in the NOW.

    • vinaire  On November 26, 2013 at 2:00 PM

      Noun = names.
      Verb = activities.

      • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 26, 2013 at 2:03 PM

        🙂 thanks.. Don’t make any difference what so ever to me, they both are given labels

  • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 26, 2013 at 2:00 PM

    I all ready know what it works so I don’t have the need to look for what it works and I also know that there is no magic wand in universe to wave over somebodies head and with that erase all the filter and putting that person into that magical moment of NOW.

  • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 26, 2013 at 2:06 PM

    TIME is a consideration, it has no mass” no energy, therefore it is intangible. Time that consideration do not exist outside of this plant. Entities do not measure.

    • vinaire  On November 27, 2013 at 8:30 AM

      Time is an aspect of motion, just like space is.

      .

      • Chris Thompson  On November 27, 2013 at 1:50 PM

        Motion seems to be an awareness characteristic of the quantum of space-time. Both appear simultaneously for us. It is kind of a squirrel cage without a beginning or ending.

  • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 26, 2013 at 2:25 PM

    Motion is motion.. the consideration that is moving is already a added ”thought” If one looks at movement of a cloud and do nothing else in that moment but observing that cloud… that that person will not see movement at all..
    IF ONE IS IN THE MOMENT OF”” NOW”” that one wont even see a MOVEMENT because seeing movement how far that clouds moves… what speeds it goes than one already compares that cloud to other objects and JUDGES THE SPEED and the JUDGEMENT brings in considerations= beliefs which are made up from other beliefs judgements.
    When one say there is motion than that is already outside of the NOW.

    • vinaire  On November 27, 2013 at 8:52 AM

      One sees motion only when it is relative.

      KHTK Axiom #1: Neither the state of rest, nor the state of motion can be determined to exist in an absolute sense. All motion is relative.

      DEFINITION: Absolute means, “Viewed independently; not comparative or relative; ultimate; intrinsic.”

      https://vinaire.me/2013/10/04/khtk-axiom-1-the-absolute/

      .

      • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 27, 2013 at 12:56 PM

        V.. I wonder here what is your reason asking us if you are already positive of the answers..

        • vinaire  On November 27, 2013 at 1:25 PM

          Because I am always looking for possible inconsistencies, so I can update my view.

          I would like to know if you have an actual observation different from mine.

          .

      • Chris Thompson  On November 27, 2013 at 1:59 PM

        . . . and vice versa. If one watches, looks closely at still things, one will see motion, time, and space. Is there anything else? Are energy and matter primary or secondary to this? We refer to matter as a condensate of energy. But is this true? If so, then matter is a secondary manifestation. What about energy?

        Any type or variation of stillness perceived in the universe is a mental abstraction only and has no equal in the world except in the most relative sense.

  • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 26, 2013 at 2:33 PM

    V…”You see things as they are. Then you see relationships among things as they are.”
    If one sees ”relationships” among things than one is all ready judging and any judgement can only happen THROUGH FILTERS. Judgement comes from having ”belief “” what is right and what is wrong” and those two concepts were made up by individuals and agreements were piled up on them.
    right or wrong ; what is only exist among humans and when one decide what is right or wrong that comes from beliefs.. beliefs come from teachings from others and one goes into agreements with.

    • vinaire  On November 27, 2013 at 8:54 AM

      How do you know when you are not judging?

      One could be judging what NOW is!

      .

      • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 27, 2013 at 12:44 PM

        when in the now the real fraction of the moment of creation when experienced there is no judgement and one knows that there is no judgement.
        The moment of NOW is where judgement do not exist yet. It is just IS.

        • vinaire  On November 27, 2013 at 1:06 PM

          That is the direction mindfulness.takes. 🙂

          .

  • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 26, 2013 at 2:46 PM

    TO achieve the moment of NOW is not coming from judgement= what is right or what is wrong.. but realization that all creation is equal: That means just that Equal, all has the same value, nothing is bad or good. bigger or better, wrong or right. They are just there, they ARE=exist.. and there is no more to that.

    • vinaire  On November 27, 2013 at 1:11 PM

      From
      https://vinaire.me/2013/09/05/the-12-aspects-of-mindfulness-revised/

      .

      2. Observe things as they are, without assuming anything.

      As you look do not assume anything. It is easy to assume what one normally expects to be there. For example, if you are looking at the profile of a person, you see only one ear, but you may take it for granted that the person has two ears. Separate the actual perception from the ideas of what should be there.

      You may want to focus on this aspect of mindfulness next. Start the exercise as in 1 above, and observe without assuming anything. Let your observation be completely non-judgmental.

      .

      10. Do not get hung up on name and form.

      Mindfulness is to observe and notice things for what they are. To know something, you do not have to label it, or use words to describe it. Be aware that name and form may act as built-in judgment of what is there.

      To practice this aspect of mindfulness, start with the exercise in 1 above. There should be no effort to judge by deliberately supplying name and form to what is there. You simply look and recognize what something is.

      .

      • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 27, 2013 at 1:52 PM

        V…”” Observe things as they are, without assuming anything.””
        As I have written here that course ”Observing the obvious.'” was one of my first courses I have taken In the Vancouvers Mission in 1974. You are not saying anything new here. LRH compiled that course and was taken by many.

        • vinaire  On November 27, 2013 at 1:56 PM

          I never give out any new knowledge. I am just a magnifying glass!

          .

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 27, 2013 at 2:12 PM

          And for me is totally fine how you see the universe, and I don’t have the need or want to change any ones belief how they see the Universe.. I don’t have the need-desire -to judge compare different beliefs and to decide what is write or wrong and come to conclusion ”yes!!! this information is the correct info!”..and that leaves me out of any discussion.. Thanks again for the Invite..

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 27, 2013 at 3:41 PM

          Right you are… there is no new knowledge in existence in the Universe but one.

  • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 26, 2013 at 2:53 PM

    When one judges that others done something wrong or done much better than self or self know better than others with that judging has added VALUE: in this case others are less or more than self, have more power, or less power.
    V.. we really talking in human terms… and that is not on the path of enlightenment.

    • vinaire  On November 27, 2013 at 1:19 PM

      Of course, one should not be judgmental. I have observed that when people become aware of how judgmental they are being, they cease to be judgmental. Nobody is knowingly judgmental.

      How do we bring that awareness so that one ceases to be judgmental?

      .

      • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 27, 2013 at 1:48 PM

        “”How do we bring that awareness so that one ceases to be judgmental?””
        I have no idea how others will do it but I HAVE achieved that state .

        .

        • vinaire  On November 27, 2013 at 1:53 PM

          So, you don’t judge anything or anybody at all?

          .

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 27, 2013 at 2:34 PM

          OH I do… example… toast the brad or not, have one or two cup of coffee today, how I see the day outside, what should I wear today. etc… just daily stuff which has to be done for the body. I have squared out the Universe where I am with it.. where I stand as not as a person-being but a ENTITY since person-being is only a concept therefore not existing in my reality. The knowledge I have gained while on the PATH OF ENLIGHTENMANT is mine alone and of course belongs to the Universe also. Since the Entity do not have ownership of anything in the Universe.

        • MarkNR  On November 27, 2013 at 6:12 PM

          Eliz;
          Have you recovered abilities as you have resolved confusions and inconsistencies of your past?
          Mark

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 27, 2013 at 8:00 PM

          I would like to put in few more words: what ever you are aware of what ever you see with eyes and without those are your abilities.

  • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 27, 2013 at 1:46 PM

    V..That is the direction mindfulness.takes. 🙂
    SO IS AUDITING… the only reason I know what I write is because Example: state of ”NOW”’ because I have achieved that state.. is that so difficult to comprehend ?
    .

    • vinaire  On November 27, 2013 at 1:51 PM

      What is the difference between AUDITING and mindfulness?

      .

      • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 27, 2013 at 2:54 PM

        You tell me that.. I am interested In that reality.

      • vinaire  On November 27, 2013 at 4:33 PM

        I see auditing as the application of mindfulness with a direction. The auditing process provides a direction. There are many hundreds of processes in Scientology.

        One area of weakness and danger in Scientology auditing is C/Sing. Here another person determines what is needed by the preclear. This is external evaluation, which can and has gone wrong quite often requiring the use of correction lists.

        Just the presence of Correction Lists in auditing tells me that something in the auditing procedure is missing.
        .

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 28, 2013 at 1:53 PM

          V…”’I see auditing as the application of mindfulness with a direction. The auditing process provides a direction”” this is your understanding of auditing and it is a good one. THAN you give in different post and asking if auditing contains those points.. Now, you tell me what was your reason asking when you already understood the principals what sessions-auditing is all about.???
          This do not make any sense to me.. care to explain?

        • vinaire  On November 28, 2013 at 5:57 PM

          Eliz, I believe that absolutes are unattainable. So my understanding is not perfect. I am always looking for feedback in areas of my interest to see if there are any inconsistencies that I need to resolve.

          It is through the resolution of inconsistencies that understanding is improved.

          .

      • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 28, 2013 at 4:19 PM

        in this question above again you are asking for explanation and this dont make sense since you already give definition an both and I have done the same… Care to explain again the reason behind these kind of questioning?

        • vinaire  On November 28, 2013 at 6:14 PM

          Please see my response above.

          https://vinaire.me/2013/11/14/questioning-scientology-knowledge/#comment-14693

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 28, 2013 at 8:12 PM

          OK… but how many times I need to explain what is auditing?

        • vinaire  On November 28, 2013 at 8:34 PM

          You need to explain it as many times as necessary. Even a million times is not enough if somebody wants to know it.

          .

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 28, 2013 at 8:39 PM

          OK.. Since I only have one way to say it, one reality what is auditing and what it do than I recommend to the person who did not understand what I have written to reread it a million times or get auditing in order to gain reality. I am finished with this subject since this is not discussions.

        • vinaire  On November 28, 2013 at 8:49 PM

          Where will the person go to get the auditing you do. Are you willing to train others to audit?

          At least I am training people on mindfulness. I have managed to come up with a format that is working. I now have to tweak it with the help of those on this blog.

          .

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 28, 2013 at 9:44 PM

          We all do what we all do.. You help because it pleases you and no other reason. What I do, how I help is my affair. But I do not put down others for not doing the same as I, like you have just done that to me. Best to you.. till next time.

        • vinaire  On November 28, 2013 at 9:50 PM

          I am sorry to say this but I see an inconsistency here. You are separating yourself from others. You are saying that others are responsible for themselves and that is not your problem.

          That kind of stance goes against the goal of clearing the planet. If you don’t share that goal then that is fine.

          .

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 29, 2013 at 11:33 PM

          🙂 you have a great sense of humor, for a few minutes I believed what you have written. !!!

        • MarkNR  On November 29, 2013 at 11:40 PM

          Sarcasm is beneath you, Liz. You can do better.
          Mark

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 30, 2013 at 12:27 AM

          NO… and you have hidden standards… how one should behave and what one should say what is proper or what is not, that is wanting to control -regulate-putting down the law.. the must do this or else thing.. reprimanding others ..punishing for expressing different reality… look into it!

        • MarkNR  On November 30, 2013 at 2:10 AM

          Eliz:
          Perhaps I was recalling times I had been sarcastic, it was beneath me.
          Sarcasm is not communication.
          Mark

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 30, 2013 at 2:13 AM

          I no longer have husmail account… so I have no idea where you have sent your communication.

        • MarkNR  On November 30, 2013 at 2:35 AM

          I can send e-mail anywhere, it does not have to be encrypted. I only got that account so that I could send PC reports to the C/S while I was delivering the purif from remote locations. Hushmail works just like yahoo or G-mail when not encrypted. I have written some short articles based on my experience that you may find interesting.
          marknr@hushmail.com
          Mark

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 30, 2013 at 2:47 AM

          I have given here in this blog 3 times my private email…I have opened a husmail account just for you, which you never used so it closed automatically.. I have given up..

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 30, 2013 at 2:16 AM

          ”’Beneath me or beneath you”’.. that concept is truly a evaluation.. putting the person to a lower level, it is heavy judgement …

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 30, 2013 at 2:18 AM

          sarcasm is a communication, just take a look what it really is.

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 30, 2013 at 12:40 AM

          I would like to add a bit more: taking away the freedom of speech ..and applying censorship is part of control, and that indicates none confront… cant have, putting people into little boxes and when that is achieved the world will be a safer place to be in.. Good one… and you want to clear the planet.. I call that dictatorship.. yes and I have done much better… you have no idea what that little remark you have made really indicates…

        • MarkNR  On November 30, 2013 at 1:55 AM

          To Eliz:
          I admire your determinism and effort. I consider it one of the greatest abilities one can gain.
          As for abilities gained during your work, can you be a little more detailed?
          Me, I have found that, more and more I know what people are thinking during my conversations and interactions with them. I have discovered a tremendous love for all those I meet, whether friends or not, whether they are happy or troubled, whether they consider themselves allies or opponents. Lately, data is becoming very easy to understand and absorb. I’m finally ready to tackle those books on calculus I have lying on my shelf. I find myself seeing inside of objects more often. I can see the defects and gaps in the wood I have been working with. At the factory I worked at, I would occasionally see the parts inside of machines and resolve problems that were ongoing. I gained a reputation as a miracle worker but it was inconsistent. This work is incomplete since I have to intend to admire the device and observe ‘visions’ of it’s manufacture before I can ‘be it’ and ‘feel’ it’s operation.
          I often see problems on the road before I come to them and take measures to prevent accidents for myself and drivers around me. My wife is starting to get used to this.
          Three yrs. ago, I had a mini stroke which left an apathy and tiredness on my left side. I did positive processing to improve comm with that area, followed by a form of R3ra and located 22 similar instances of blood blockages in human and similar bodies. I then reviewed those lives for confusions and computations which related to this condition. A few days later, the blockage was gone, as indicated by another MRI. Other than that, I have not had a body illness since I did TR-0 at the age of 12 in 1969.
          Assists are often very fast and effective. Usually I can get someone in a keyed out tone, touch and understand their body problem and it disappears. No mechanics.
          I am very curious to know of some of your experiences.
          Mark

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 28, 2013 at 8:16 PM

          What Buddha said is only a assumption …. a hear-say.. not a example I want to fallow.

        • vinaire  On November 28, 2013 at 8:36 PM

          I don’t remember giving out any assumptions of Buddha. So, I have no idea what you are talking about here.

          .

        • MarkNR  On November 30, 2013 at 2:01 AM

          Eliz:
          PS: I have written you twice, would you like me to re-send them?
          Mark

  • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 27, 2013 at 7:21 PM

    Vin… When I went into scientology the Lists were considerably less.. and as I have continued with solo auditing I have discovered for my self the most affective way to handle the daily incoming stimulations. By doing that ones space is clean and one is continually winning knowing that no matter what kind of shit falls an ones head can be handled. No C/S was needed OR WANTED!!! The C/S is good for the beginners.. guiding is needed than but not after one has learned to solo audit.
    While I audited without C/S I have taken TOTAL RESPONSIBILITY for self and for everything I do is my responsibility and there is no blame that others did what ever.
    I never needed or even entered my mind that I needed correction lists since every session I have had ended with VGI,s.. Cognitions and that means F/N or F/T.
    I do not say that some of the sessions were not difficult, I have written In my blog about the most difficult session I ever had… It went for 3 days.
    I do not care where other scientologists are or what is the church doing since I have reality about the future and I know what will happen.
    I also believe that every person is in the right place where ever they are on their Path of Enlightenment. Because every being on this planet is on that Path even if a person in this moment just killed his mother.

  • Elizabeth Hamre  On November 27, 2013 at 7:24 PM

    MARK…..Eliz;
    Have you recovered abilities as you have resolved confusions and inconsistencies of your past?
    E.. all of them and that is unimaginable what that contains by understanding of the human mind.

  • vinaire  On November 30, 2013 at 6:14 AM

    Let me remind the participants on this blog of the following policy.

    Discussions and what needs to be avoided

    No “self” should be allowed to enter the discussions… no blaming others… or defending oneself. Please keep to the subject in an objective manner.

    Thank you.

    .

  • vinaire  On November 30, 2013 at 7:21 AM

    Currently, I am looking at the terms THETAN and INDIVIDUALITY as part of L10 process. It seems that many of these terms have to be understood fully to get the most out of L10.

    I shall like to know the various understandings that exist about these terms. Your thoughts are welcome.

    .

  • vinaire  On November 30, 2013 at 8:09 AM

    Attention on SELF, either on oneself, or on the self of others, means to me that something on the subject of THETAN and INDIVIDUALITY needs to be resolved.

    L10 requires that these be resolved. So I shall be using the following procedure to understand these concepts.

    Mindful Subject Clearing

    .

    • Elizabeth Hamre  On December 3, 2013 at 1:38 PM

      When one wants to undertake “”CLEARING THE PLANET” than one has already entered into a conclusion that the planet population is in fact need to be changed, for the BETTER because they are in a BAD Shape, in their mind-thinking- in belief because their belief is wrong, should be different. need to be better.. HERE the person who believes that SELF IS THE ONE WHO CAN CHANGE THE CONDITION FOR THE BETTER is BY HIS or HER OWN JUDGEMENT is better person, know more than others, have the right answer, the write tool to do just that.
      That means the person already separated self from others, has judged the actions-thinking-beliefs of these person is that they have less in every way including knowledge.
      The persons who decide to save others believes of self that he is the savior of mankind…..OHHHHHH now we looking at here big ego in play… HUGE..
      Any person who believes of self that self is the savior is on the power trip same as LRH, Hitler, Stalin and many other dictators of the past who believed that they had the power and knowledge to change the history of the Planet Earth.
      Yes they have changed the History but that was already written in the Book of Future that it will happen and their influence changed the reality but never for the so called “BETTER”.
      One singular persons thinking believing their singular knowledge have the power to influence =erase the believes of others that person don’t have the insight into others universe what that contains.
      Believing in something like that is born out of self importance, know the best for others and that comes from some heavy judgement.
      Judgement has nothing to do with being in a moment in the NOW.

      • vinaire  On December 3, 2013 at 6:14 PM

        Per the first Noble Truth, there is Dukkha. My idea behind “Clearing the Planet” would be to estanlish mindfulness across the planet. It would not eliminate the dukkha, but it would help reduce the effect of dukkha on self that is being mindful.

        The idea of “saving the planet” does to fit with mindfulness. It is compassion and compassion alone that brings about the idea of spreading the knowledge and practice of mindfulness.

        .

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On December 3, 2013 at 6:33 PM

          Compassion is where one judges and very heavily!! because from judgements comes the conclusion that my way is better than yours because look at your life you are in deep shit and if you fallow my way than you will have a good worthwhile life like mine is. Compassion has been invented inserted into the history of mankind and I don’t see any good it has done outside of separation of self from others.. emphasises what is good and what is bad. Compassion is nothing more than the illusion of feeling superiority over others..

        • Chris Thompson  On December 3, 2013 at 6:45 PM

          Elizabeth: Compassion is nothing more than the illusion of feeling superiority over others..

          Chris: There IS that kind of compassion, that’s one way to look at it. But if the leaves on your roses burn, turn yellow, etc., do you act to save them by applying more water, fertilizer, or maybe pesticide?? I am trying to stay with your very good discussion here with Vinay.

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On December 3, 2013 at 6:55 PM

          Lets not confuse roses which are solid items with human beliefs.
          But I can also see your point.. to have better reality- different reality from one do not like to experience. But, again When one offers better reality-viewpoints on the same subject is it really better or just different?
          It can be only different, since ”value” : what is good or what is bad is established from personal viewpoint and collected agreements from others and anything agreed upon it is not the way to Enlightenment.

        • Chris Thompson  On December 3, 2013 at 7:06 PM

          Good, so if a person hollers for help, we could show non-judgemental compassion and throw them a life-preserver. This is different from selling them an intensive of auditing and telling them their OCA testing is low and to keep them from committing suicide they must buy auditing at once. I get it.

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On December 3, 2013 at 7:16 PM

          No you don’t get it…I would not call scientology ideas compassionate. or LRH was for a minute. One can offer different idea to someone and that person do not have to feel any emotion about why that different idea is offered. One can offer something to the other person simply because one is communicating ideas at all times.
          Why one has to feel sorry for any one? That is truly a judgemental action.

        • vinaire  On December 3, 2013 at 6:46 PM

          com·pas·sion noun
          1. a feeling of deep sympathy and sorrow for another who is stricken by misfortune, accompanied by a strong desire to alleviate the suffering.

          .

          pas·sion noun
          1. any powerful or compelling emotion or feeling.

          .

          Compassion does not come from judgment. Compassion swells up within the person by inherent nature. A person is simply moved by the observed inconsistencies to do something to resolve those inconsistencies.

          .

  • Elizabeth Hamre  On December 3, 2013 at 2:00 PM

    PS: Dictators have put down their own rules.. please examine the history and you can see that. Forced rules: my way is the only way out!!!
    LRH had his own rules enforced in the CoS….
    Enforced rules do bring changes but just changes and those changes are judged by the ”individual’ if they are better or worst.
    History: the continual flow of activities change but its content is judged and the collected agreements will decide if the change experienced is for better or not..
    Now, all that is not on the Path of Enlightenment…
    Wanting to clear the Planet by saying ”I know better, I can do better because I have proved over and over that the other person is wrong, because was presenting a lie.. is ”looking through many filters-aberration of their own” and not being in the NOW where judgement do not exist.
    I believe they have medical terms for people like them…something to do with being a maniac.

    • vinaire  On December 3, 2013 at 6:26 PM

      You are right. In mindfulness there is no judgment.

      .

      • Elizabeth Hamre  On December 3, 2013 at 6:34 PM

        and compassion is nothing but judgement of actions

        • vinaire  On December 3, 2013 at 6:48 PM

          This is my understanding of compassion from dictonary definitions.

          https://vinaire.me/2013/11/14/questioning-scientology-knowledge/#comment-14908

          Compassion does not arise from judgment.

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On December 3, 2013 at 6:59 PM

          YES it do.. and I don’t really care to read what a dictionary had to say. You need to examine that thought-consideration a bit closer and from selfs experience and do forget what others think and know. because all you have done so far is you have went into agreement with the dictionary.

        • MarkNR  On December 3, 2013 at 7:21 PM

          The purpose of a dictionary is to list and delineate COMMONLY AGREED MEANINGS OF WORDS FOR THE PURPOSE OF ACCURATE COMMUNICATION. Not all agreement is bank agreement. If a word does not have the exact meaning of a concept one is trying to convey, use a different word or a combination of words to make one’s communication duplicateable. Perhaps compassion falls short of what you mean to say. Different languages makes this a bit more challenging.
          Mark

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On December 3, 2013 at 7:27 PM

          🙂

        • vinaire  On December 3, 2013 at 7:10 PM

          I would allow you your reality. But my reality is different as I have expressed above. I expect you not to be judgmental here.

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On December 3, 2013 at 7:17 PM

          OK.. that is a controlling order. Thank you, I got it.

        • vinaire  On December 3, 2013 at 7:28 PM

          That would depend upon how you take it. 🙂

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On December 3, 2013 at 7:33 PM

          as you said it meant it.. and that is not liked at through filters.

        • vinaire  On December 3, 2013 at 7:35 PM

          It is how you judge it. 🙂

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On December 3, 2013 at 7:39 PM

          Right…it was requested to have different reality.. since what I have said was not the right one.

        • vinaire  On December 3, 2013 at 7:44 PM

          I didn’t say that. Nor did I imply it. You simply have your reality which is inconsistent with my reality. It doesn’t mean that you are wrong. How are you judging my reality to be?

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On December 3, 2013 at 7:45 PM

          different from how I see the Universe.

        • vinaire  On December 3, 2013 at 7:48 PM

          Correct! The KHTK word for this is inconsistency. 🙂

          We have an inconsistency here… a lack of consistency or harmony. Inconsistencies abound among different religions.

  • Elizabeth Hamre  On December 3, 2013 at 2:13 PM

    PS: and one can see when one embark on such a journey is in TOTAL SEPARATION OF SELF FROM OTHERS AND THAT HAPPENS WHEN JUDGEMENT IS USED.. that person lives only by judgement
    And I don’t believe that is Buddha’s way or ever was.

    • vinaire  On December 3, 2013 at 6:56 PM

      Buddha was completely non-judgmental and very compassionate. He pointed out the way to overcome dukkha through mindfulness. He spent all his life teaching others the process of mindfulness.

      • Elizabeth Hamre  On December 3, 2013 at 7:05 PM

        so what has to do with the price of tea in china at the present time? Experience of Gautama what is was, how it was is only a hearsay, a assumption and no one knows for sure what he had on mind when talked about his experiences. His words were not written in stone or no recording existing.
        AND NO ONE COMES TO CONCLUSION OF ANY KIND IF NOT JUDGING !! NOT EVEN GAUTAMA! CAN NOT BE DONE!

        • vinaire  On December 3, 2013 at 7:14 PM

          Buddha’s teaching of mindfulness matters very much in present time. It is much more important than Buddha himself. Actually, Buddha doesn’t matter much to me.

          I find mindfulness helping me and a lot of other people.

  • Elizabeth Hamre  On December 3, 2013 at 2:27 PM

    Gautama : Buddha have immense power yet the teaching only brought different ways of thinking into this Planet but that thinking could not erase-eliminate the so called bad-evil. from the mind=universe of individuals. [violence among the believers point to that fact]
    You put your self even above him.. that you have more to offer and your ways are better than any man who has lived on this Planet..

    • vinaire  On December 3, 2013 at 7:05 PM

      Buddha’s teachings brought civilization to three-quarters of the world of his time. That is a remarkable accomplishment.

      Compassion to handle inconsistencies is a natural outcome of mindfulness. It has nothing to do with putting importance on self. But some may think like that. That would be judgmental thinking.

      • Elizabeth Hamre  On December 3, 2013 at 7:08 PM

        ”’Buddha’s teachings brought civilization to three-quarters of the world of his time. That is a remarkable accomplishment.” and down hill from there an all the way to the bottom of LRH’s Tone Scale.
        Why one feels compassion? in the first place?

        • vinaire  On December 3, 2013 at 7:20 PM

          One may not feel compassion when one is unaware of inconsistencies.

          One may become unaware of inconsistencies when one is not being mindful.

          One goes downhill when one is not being mindful. That applies to OT VIIIs also.

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On December 3, 2013 at 7:31 PM

          You are speaking of generalities ”One goes downhill when one is not being mindful. That applies to OT VIIIs also.”” I wonder just how many OT VIII’s do you know in person so you can pass judgement on them where they are in comparison to your beliefs.

        • vinaire  On December 3, 2013 at 7:33 PM

          Do you believe that an OT VIII can never go downhill?

          .

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On December 3, 2013 at 7:53 PM

          Here you have not answered my question: why do you feel compassion in the first place? Care to answer that ?

        • MarkNR  On December 3, 2013 at 8:01 PM

          Eliz:
          Did you get my message? That may explain a lot.
          Mark.

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On December 3, 2013 at 8:15 PM

          It explains how you see your own creation and no more outside of that What I read is my reality and that is not your reality.

        • vinaire  On December 3, 2013 at 8:16 PM

          In response to
          E…”Here you have not answered my question: why do you feel compassion in the first place? Care to answer that ?”

          .

          Sure. The answer lies in this short post.

          https://vinaire.me/2013/08/10/my-premise/

          Compassion arises from the inherent nature of consistency. There is a natural drive to resolve inconsistencies.

          .

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On December 3, 2013 at 8:23 PM

          V….””It does not matter what viewpoint one approaches with, the personal viewpoint shall gradually disappear as inconsistencies and assumptions are removed.

          What will remain shall be the actual reality in all its glory.”” Do tell, if all viewpoints are removed what will remain ”IN ALL ITS GLORY?” have you figured that one out? That when one removes all viewpoints than there is no glory to anything since glory is evaluation of something?

        • vinaire  On December 3, 2013 at 8:45 PM

          https://vinaire.me/2013/11/14/questioning-scientology-knowledge/#comment-14945

          E…”What will remain shall be the actual reality in all its glory.”” Do tell, if all viewpoints are removed what will remain ”IN ALL ITS GLORY?” have you figured that one out? That when one removes all viewpoints than there is no glory to anything since glory is evaluation of something?”

          When all viewpoints are removed then it is the reality perceiving itself. That is what seems to me. 🙂

          .

      • Elizabeth Hamre  On December 3, 2013 at 7:56 PM

        V…. “Compassion to handle inconsistencies is a natural outcome of mindfulness.””” now, where the IDEA-consideration has come from the above? Who made that decision and who has agreed to that? Please…

        • vinaire  On December 3, 2013 at 8:24 PM

          In my view “who?” is an apparency. There is no permanent self that answers the question, “Who?”

          A “Self” is simply a resultant vector of considerations that already exist.

          Where do the considerations come from is just a matter of guess. Some people guess that something called a being creates the considerations. But then one is confronted with the inconsistency, “Where does the being come from?”

          Haha!

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On December 3, 2013 at 8:29 PM

          OK.. you still not answered the question asked

        • vinaire  On December 3, 2013 at 8:48 PM

          Maybe I did. Please look at #5 of the Discussion Policy:

          https://vinaire.me/2012/07/16/discussions-and-what-needs-to-be-avoided/

          .

      • Elizabeth Hamre  On December 3, 2013 at 8:01 PM

        thinking believing differently do not mean that one way of thinking is better than other, that one belief has more value than other believes. Value even when talking of civilization is from evaluations and collected agreement from many persons EXAMPLE: ice cream is good, ice cream is really bad for your health.. Good and bad what is, is from judgement and nothing more.

        • vinaire  On December 3, 2013 at 8:28 PM

          An inconsistency cannot be resolved by being judgmental.

          People think they have resolved an inconsistency by thinking, “I am right and he is wrong” or “He is right and I am wrong.” But none of these considerations resolve the inconsistency.

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On December 3, 2013 at 8:30 PM

          That is what you are doing with LRH’s work.. he is wrong.. here and here and here he lies even! What you call that action, care to explain?

        • vinaire  On December 3, 2013 at 9:39 PM

          I don’t think that I am doing that.

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On December 3, 2013 at 9:42 PM

          It is fine with me and I am sure with others too, what ever you are doing is just IS.. it can never be any other ways.

        • vinaire  On December 3, 2013 at 10:04 PM

          Please don’t discuss the participants. That violates the discussion policy.

          Let’s discuss “responsibility for clearing the planet”, which I believe is the subject we are discussing.

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On December 3, 2013 at 10:10 PM

          Vinaire.. if you would have read any of my posts than you would realised that I partake in clearing the Universe not just the planet. I have written in more than one of my post what ”cognitions do, how they effect the universe.” outside of that I can not give you different viewpoint. just because there is no reality on what I do that do not means it is not happening and not real.

        • vinaire  On December 3, 2013 at 10:20 PM

          I am simply pointing out the inconsistency between the following two data:

          (1) The goal is clearing the planet.
          (2) Everyone is responsible for their own condition, so I am not going to do anything to help change their condition.

          If (2) is not your position then I would like to know how you are helping others change their condition.

          .

  • Elizabeth Hamre  On December 3, 2013 at 2:41 PM

    Everything you know has been said before you are saying here and had been said by those who had influence and power.. yet not one of them had enough knowledge=power to erase the ”bad-evil’ from the Universe.. there is some assessment needed for self and new different reality is wanted -needed to establish what motivates the self who put self above all.

    • vinaire  On December 3, 2013 at 9:16 PM

      Until there remain inconsistencies the ‘bad-evil’ shall remain.

      One may separate oneself from others and hide in their own universe, but that is simply a non-confront and you know it. The ‘bad-evil’ shall continue until the inconsistencies are resolved and not just avoided.

      This is Dukkha of the First Noble Truth of Buddha.

  • Elizabeth Hamre  On December 3, 2013 at 4:08 PM

    In the CofS we all had to study the meanings of words and come to the same understanding. there were lists, to do, same as here. When somebody expressed different reality well, you know what has happened to that person. Here in this blog the persons post is erased and the person is told that cant post here any more because have not fallowed the ESTABLISHED RULES!!!! YOUR RULES.
    You demand there is only one way to WHAT? TO THINK and believe in the same, talk the same way, think the same way…And you also believe that your way which is the conclusion of yours that is the way to Nirvana what ever that is in your reality.
    Educated people who went to some university believe that one can only be educated if had lots of education in one of those great universities and other people just don’t have knowledge because they ” never been educated by the right educators”
    Here is the question. What University Gautama went to? Which University Lao tsu have been educated or rest of the great philosophers went to?
    Why I am asking these questions.. ??? you are looking for inconsistencies in beliefs-thinking. Well, always good place to start and examine how self thinks and believes in before embark on the adventure of wanting to change 6-9 billions people’s beliefs.

    • vinaire  On December 3, 2013 at 9:19 PM

      If you have disagreement with the policy of this blog then discuss it.

      Why deal in blame game?

      • Elizabeth Hamre  On December 3, 2013 at 9:46 PM

        I have not blamed any one, just expressed MY REALITY.. if seen as blame than I apologise for that.

        • vinaire  On December 3, 2013 at 10:10 PM

          Yes, you can participate in the discussion without becoming personal.

          .

    • vinaire  On December 3, 2013 at 9:22 PM

      E… “And you also believe that your way which is the conclusion of yours that is the way to Nirvana what ever that is in your reality.”

      This is judgmental.

      • Elizabeth Hamre  On December 3, 2013 at 9:44 PM

        judgemental and not mindful … right

        • vinaire  On December 3, 2013 at 10:08 PM

          Please discuss the subject and not the participants of the discussion. If you have disagreement with the Discussion policy then I am open for discussion on that.

          .

    • vinaire  On December 3, 2013 at 9:24 PM

      E… “Well, always good place to start and examine how self thinks and believes in before embark on the adventure of wanting to change 6-9 billions people’s beliefs.”

      There is an assumption here. Buddha taught mindfulness not to change anybody’s mind. He was simply teaching a skill.

  • Elizabeth Hamre  On December 3, 2013 at 4:31 PM

    Here is a big inconsistency in your teaching. Clearing the Planet. You do not believe that scientology method ” auditing” can achieve it and tens of thousands have gained different reality by having been audited or solo audited and yet you do not believe that auditing works yet you have put together MODELED your ”method” on scientology auditing principals and believe that it will achieve that.. CLEAR THE PLANET! Of what I may ask?
    Well, the whole idea of yours even if it is on paper has not been tested by many thousands and attested yes that they have had life changing wins.
    You call ”recalls” of the past , those who have written about such as I have that they have illusions.. good point, but what is the difference between your grand illusions or LRH’s, you both want to clear the planet what you believe in is wrong and make the population believe what is right by your very own viewpoints-reality.
    You call it mindful looking he called it confronting thing as they are.

  • Chris Thompson  On December 3, 2013 at 7:17 PM

    On the subject of freedom and questioning authority, I have fallen in love with this song and its passion: “ Hum dekhenge by Iqbal bano,” but I am at loss to understand the story. Can you help translate it? Here’s an English rendition of the words:

    Hum dekhenge
    Lazim hai ke hum bhi dekhenge
    Woh din ke jis ka waada hai
    Jo loh-e-azl pe likha hai
    Hum dekhenge

    Jab zulm-o-sitam ke koh-e-garaan
    Rui ki tarah ud jayenge
    Hum mehkumoon ke paun tale
    Yeh dharti dhad dhad dhadkagi
    Aur ehl-e-hukum ke sar upar
    Jab bijli kad kad kadkegi
    Hum dekhenge

    Jab arz-e-khuda ke Kabe se
    Sab but uthwaye jayenge
    Hum ahl-e-safa mardood-e-haram
    Masnad pe bithaye jayenge
    Sab taaj uchale jayenge
    Sab takht giraye jayenga
    Bas naam rahega Allah ka
    Jo ghayab bhi hai hazir bhi
    Jo nazir bhi hai manzar bhi
    Uthega nalhaq ka naara
    Jomain bhi hoon aur tum bhi ho
    Aur raaj karegi khalq-e-khuda
    Jo main bhi hoon aur tum bhi ho
    Hum dekhenge
    Lazim hai ke hum bhi dekhenge
    Hum dekhenge

    • vinaire  On December 3, 2013 at 9:59 PM

      You are right that that the beautiful lyrics of this song are about freedom and questioning authority. The language is Urdu and not Hindi. I understand 90% of it, but the 10% that I don’t understand may mess up the deeper meaning.

      I have, therefore, asked a Muslim friend of mine to translate it for both of us. I shall provide that translation as soon as I receive it.

      • Chris Thompson  On December 3, 2013 at 11:53 PM

        I love this woman’s voice and enunciation. Do you like the song?

        • MarkNR  On December 3, 2013 at 11:57 PM

          Chris:
          Get a chance to go over this article? It has a few points that I believe deserve comment.
          Mark

        • Chris Thompson  On December 4, 2013 at 7:19 AM

          I will Mark.

        • vinaire  On December 4, 2013 at 6:27 AM

          Chris, Part of the translation provided for that song is quite accurate, “Certainly we, too, shall witness that day … When these high mountains/Of tyranny and oppression turn to fluff and evaporate/And we oppressed/Beneath our feet will this earth shiver, shake and beat/And heads of rulers will be struck/With crackling lightening and thunder roars/When crowns will be flung in the air — and thrones will be overturned …,” The crowd went wild at these words of open opposition to government’s tyranny.

          In 1947, when the British crown could no longer control the protest against its rule, it turned over the authority to Indian leaders. The politics of the times divided British India into secular India and Muslim Pakistan. It is interesting to note that there are more muslims in secular India than there are muslims in religious Pakistan. The muslims in secular India have lived peacefully for the most part. But Muslim Pakistan has never been stable politically. Even the two parts of Pakistan fell out of union. The East Pakistan separated itself from the tyrannical domination of West Pakistan and became Bangladesh in 1971 (see Wikipedia).

          West Pakistan is now called Pakistan. The word Pakistan means, “the sacred land”. It is a Muslim country. It has always been in conflict with secular India. Its rule has been tyrannical since its inception. It has been ruled by dictators. It has hardly seen any democracy. It is very similar in structure to Scientology. There are really warm hearted good people there; but they are trapped within the system. They aspire for freedom from the dictatorship, but sadly, any protests are violently crushed. The current situation in Pakistan is pretty chaotic. It is like a criminal element ruling the country.

          During this same period, secular India has made great progress. The government of India is also quite corrupted and India is also full of protest against its political system. But those protests are not suppressed and there is no government violence. The system is chugging along due to its inertia and changing only too slowly for most people.

        • vinaire  On December 4, 2013 at 6:31 AM

          Yes, I like this singer’s voice and the song. I grew up near Delhi as a Hindu with a large muslim community around me. The common people (Hindus and Muslims) lived in peace. It was only once that I saw a communal conflict flare up. But that was incited by political moves.

  • Elizabeth Hamre  On December 3, 2013 at 7:51 PM

    V…”Do you believe that an OT VIII can never go downhill?”” I have asked you a question.. please answer that one first .. than I give you my reality ON ALL OT actions and where they live the those persons who has done those levels.

    • vinaire  On December 3, 2013 at 8:11 PM

      I think in terms of general principles. I believe in the principle that if one is not applying mindfulness then one would go downhill. I do not see how this principle will exclude OT VIIIs.

      Therefore, I believe that an OT VIII, who is not applying mindfulness shall go downhill.

      • Elizabeth Hamre  On December 3, 2013 at 8:17 PM

        ”downhill”” is your reality to which you have arrived at from evaluating what is good or bad.. Judgement and nothing more from your viewpoints.

        • vinaire  On December 3, 2013 at 8:42 PM

          I truly have no reality of my own. Whatever is expressed through me is the summation of the considerations surrounding me.

  • MarkNR  On December 3, 2013 at 8:08 PM

    To Vinaire:
    I would like to send Chris that article which lays out the origin of individuality, the relationship of theta to individuality, oneness. But it is a little long to post as a comment, about 2 pages. Is there a simple way?
    Mark

    • vinaire  On December 3, 2013 at 8:32 PM

      You may post it as “part 1”, “part 2” etc. by breaking it down into several sections. I shall make sure that these sections are kept together.

  • Elizabeth Hamre  On December 3, 2013 at 8:08 PM

    V…..”Correct! The KHTK word for this is inconsistency. 🙂

    We have an inconsistency here… a lack of consistency or harmony. Inconsistencies abound among different religions.”””
    And mindfulness is the way for achieve harmony and than all is well in the Universe.. all will stop existing.. there will be no continual creation allowed because that would cause inconsistencies. That has been achieved in the Universe.. the track is littered by incidents like that.. go into any Monastery and you can experience the left over from civilization like that.. Even the creations of Laws of this Planets are the left over from places like that… to make all equal, to have harmony …. do not work..

    • vinaire  On December 3, 2013 at 8:34 PM

      What is your ideal scene of “working”?

      .

      • Elizabeth Hamre  On December 3, 2013 at 8:35 PM

        please be so kind and answer those question I have asked.

        • vinaire  On December 3, 2013 at 8:50 PM

          Please repeat your question, because I feel I have answwered them.

          Maybe my answer is unacceptable to you.

      • Elizabeth Hamre  On December 3, 2013 at 8:41 PM

        I think I sign off here since my questions are ignored yet I feel they were valid.

        • vinaire  On December 3, 2013 at 8:50 PM

          Are you blaming me?

        • vinaire  On December 3, 2013 at 9:00 PM

          Elizabeth, if you are blaming me then you are making me responsible for your condition.

          Now that poses another inconsistency because, as I understand, you make everyone responsible for their own condition.

          Now we have come a full circle. Either you are for clearing the planet or you are not.

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On December 3, 2013 at 9:52 PM

          now who is doing the judging here, I don’t blame any one and what ever I experience I am the creator of that. THAT I HAVE A CASE IS YOUR REALITY< COME FROM YOUR JUDGEMANT. and about clearing the Planet I have done my share since 1973 and just because you don't have reality of my reality what solo auditing do that do not means what you are indicating that I do not do. THE END.. thank you

        • vinaire  On December 3, 2013 at 10:13 PM

          To quote you, “I am simply expressing my reality”.

          See, you can’t have it both ways.

          .

  • vinaire  On December 3, 2013 at 8:39 PM

    From https://vinaire.me/2013/11/14/questioning-scientology-knowledge/#comment-14942
    E…”It explains how you see your own creation and no more outside of that What I read is my reality and that is not your reality”

    .

    I don’t assume that I create. Whatever this “I” is, it is the resiltant vector of surrounding considerations. “I” represents those considerations. It does not create those considerations.

    Reality is simply what is there. I am not creating that reality. Even my “will” is part of the resultant.

  • MarkNR  On December 3, 2013 at 8:41 PM

    In the beginning.
    There is the potential. There is nothing else nor has there ever been anything else. There are no rules or ideas about how things should be. There are no things. There is no universe, nor a thought that something like that should be. There are no others since the potential is infinity and the thought of numbers or others hasn’t been thought of. It is everything that exists.
    There is no mass, ARC, communication, goal, or action of any kind. They haven’t been invented yet. Have you ever been just sitting, not doing anything, or doing TR-0 and for a few seconds you didn’t think of anything or look at anything or anything at all for a short time? That’s the potential.
    Suddenly out of nothing there was the decision to be, to continue to be. That was the invention of time. One thought following another in the one way arrow of time. Thoughts flooded. This was fun, interesting. This was also the beginning of beingness. Then there was the desire for something to occur. This was pondered for some time. A second, a year, a millennium. And you decided to create. A point to view from a point of view. And that was the beginning of matter and space.
    AND THAT WAS THE FIRST LIE. THAT’S NOT ME. You created something over there and you are over here. Distance was the first mistake. You had to pretend there was distance. Since you ARE everything that exists, distance is an invented consideration. Now this wasn’t bad, there was no such thing as bad. At least something was happening. There was no overt, no confusion, only creation. Remember, you are the only thing that exists. When you create something, it is not something else from you, it is not a part of you. IT IS YOU. THERE IS NOTHING ELSE OTHER THAN YOU. You are not ‘connected’ to it. It is you. This is a very important concept. It is absolutely vital. Now there was nothing wrong with pretending. It’s necessary for creation, for occurrence, for action, for life to DO something .
    So you made more points and more points and patterns and then shapes and this was quite an accomplishment. You worked quite hard at it and learned and practiced and it was great. Then the idea struck you that you could move these things around and energy was born. Wow. Now you could really Do stuff. Motion. Patterns of motion. Fun. And you made all sorts of patterns of motion and activity and such. And again it was a big accomplishment and you had a great time. Work and practice and learning, on and on. But there was something wrong. Everything you did was controlled by you. Hell, it was you. It’s like controlling every detail of your own dreams. It became boring. No randomity. I know, I’ll make two things and neither will know what the other is doing. They can interact yet independently. AND THERE WAS THE SECOND BIG LIE. I DIDN’T DO THAT. I’m not responsible. But it wasn’t bad at the time. There was no such thing as a lie or a mistake. This was a new fun game. It was, again, great.
    But this, also, was the first separation. It appeared as though you were telling this point what to do and telling that point what to do and watching them interact. But a more accurate analogy is standing at one point, saying and doing something, then taking two steps forward, turning around and saying and doing something else and pretending you are separate. A friend once told me that pan determinism is being able to play both sides of chess without cheating. I now realize that that is the origin of no responsibility. That’s not me. I didn’t do that. At the time it was no problem. There was no such thing as a problem. It hadn’t been invented yet. There was nothing above you saying this is how you do it or this is right or this is wrong. But remember, you are not creating something other than yourself and telling it what to do. You are everything that exists and you are learning to pretend to put up walls and dividers within yourself and pretend they are separate entities within you. This was fun and you practiced and practiced and got better and better at it. You got really good at pretending that when you were over here, you didn’t know what you were thinking when you were over there. And thus INDIVIDUALITY was born. Now, it’s not like you were sitting over here and making all these lesser entities and telling them what to do and watching them go at it. That’s what you thought. But in actuality there is the ultimate truth that you are the only thing that exists or ever has existed. Each thing or intention or potential you create is you, 100%. Each separation is the entire whole. In the theta realm there are no percentages. Infinity is without numbers. You can be 100% this and 100% that at the same time. A quick glance at Quantum Physics will give you some idea of the unreality of position and quantity. Particles can be in more than one place and yet no place at the same time. Their quantity can only be measured in averages since individual particles don’t actually exist. Such as is with theta. Each portion is equal to the whole. You can be your fathers son and your wife’s husband with full ability in each. What you have forgotten is that you can be both separately at the same time. And your bosses employee and your helpers boss and your buddy’s friend etc. etc. etc.
    These are the two original sins. That’s not me. I didn’t do that.
    Denial of beingness and responsibility.
    Altering actuality and denying it.
    But still there was nothing wrong with that. You were having fun, creating all the rules, working, practicing, making the foundation for all the future. Here came the problem. It wasn’t pain, confusion, goals or failures. It was wins ! ! ! It was really fun to pretend to separate yourself, to build imaginary walls in yourself and create randomity, action, experience. Stuff was happening. You were getting better at it. How would you feel if you spent 1000 years on a new and exciting project and succeeded at every idea and intention. How long and how much practice would it take you to control two objects completely independently of each other. To be completely clever and agile with one thing you’re controlling without something else you’re controlling knowing or being affected. How about 100 or 1000 objects or intentions or entities. That would be quite an accomplishment, a great feat. And that’s what stuck ! ! ! As Ron said, All postulates are aberrative. These were the first and they set the pattern for the rest of the half of eternity that has followed. It’s not that you failed and were upset. It’s that you succeeded and you liked it. This fact is very very important.
    And what about now.
    The Wog, Atheistic viewpoint of beingness is of an advanced chemical computer capable of thought and decisions. The next gradient up is a body with its own capabilities but controlled by a spiritual being inside or around the body. The next gradient closer to actuality is a body controlled by an individual with no actual position in space or outside of space whose attention has been narrowed and directed toward a body only. But, the closest to truth that I can put into words from what I have learned and what I have seen is as follows:
    There is Life, Theta. The potential. There are practiced, pretended viewpoints which you have gotten so good at making that now the best words for it are entities, individuals. Each equal to the whole because each actually is the whole. You are still the only thing that exists. Everything you created that you pretended was something other than you is, still actually you. The potential is infinity and by definition infinity can be divided infinitely and each division is still the whole. The entire and all universes are within you and your attention is directed toward a single point, currently a body. You are an individual, 100%. You are yourself, completely responsible for yourself and fully self determined. You are also The Potential, fully and completely. When I said you learned how to make points and make them move, I meant You. You are fully and actually the creator of all the universes. And you are 1 individual. You are both.
    Continued………..

  • MarkNR  On December 3, 2013 at 8:48 PM

    Continuation…….Please start with the first post

    This explains ARC. When you have perfect affinity there is zero distance, you occupy the same position in space. Absolute reality is seeing from exactly the same viewpoint. Total communication is perfect duplication, again zero distance. Absolute perfect ARC is being the other individual. Most people believe that we are all connected to another or others. A more advanced idea is that others are a part of us, that we are a part of each other. The truth is that guy down the street smoking a cigarette asking for a dollar, IS YOU. Not metaphorically, not literally, but actually. You are you, completely, an individual. And you are him also, 100%. You are both. Ron realized this at least by 1952 and probably sooner. That’s why he said that you will not truly be free until all are free. But with full responsibility. All these games and future games are fine and fun as long as you know fully what you’re doing.
    That is why, in my opinion, and from what I’ve learned and seen, that the most important principals in Scientology to strive to understand are responsibility of action and occurrence, and responsibility and willingness of beingness. “ That IS Me. I Did that.” To be able to duplicate without alteration. Altering truth is what gave us this big fun playground and our very existence, but it is also what got us into this mess. I also fully realize that in order to be free from the foibles of your case and the universe and interaction with others you must master these things. In fact to be free of everything you must master everything. Now don’t get overwhelmed. You already have most (some) of the knowledge needed to get there. Many of the methods to get there have already been developed. As with OT levels, you will learn (study), discover (audit), AND EXPERIENCE BY GOING OUT AND LIVING, OBSERVING. Other spiritual sciences follow the same pattern. The word ‘Audit’ could become ‘introspection’ or ‘re-discovery’. One point which is not emphasized nearly enough is that observing life is necessary to fill in all the blanks and nuances that are between the words and gain certainty on all the principals and concepts in existence. It will take a little diligence for a few hundred years or so, but that’s nothing compared to what you’ve been through.

  • vinaire  On December 4, 2013 at 6:45 AM

    Mark… “In the beginning. There is the potential…”

    .

    And how does that potential come about? Is there a potential of potential? This is just a pretension to know.

    The fact is we do not know how the considerations fundamentally appear and disappear. There is a concatenation of considerations, which appears tautological when looked closely.

    So, the word ‘potential’ may make one feel better, but it doesn’t tell much.

    .

    • MarkNR  On December 4, 2013 at 8:43 AM

      Hi Vin:
      Ya got me, there. I cannot defend or explain what is beyond that wall. I have no concept of time before time. Potential is not the perfect word, but it is, to me, the closest I can come up with which describes this area. There may not be adequate terms. Tautological arguments are all I can give you for now.
      But the real value of the paper is in the treatment of oneness and individuality. In the self imposed implants/imprints which molded one’s beingness in the early times, especially the accomplishments through long efforts.
      Your ‘discussion’ with Eliz. prompted me to post this article. “Compassion” took on new meanings to me when I saw portions of this area. I could never view others the same after realizing my true connection to life. ARC became very real to me and a deep love of others was uncovered. The desire for the bliss of oneness and joining with another resolved issues I had had all my life. My marriage changed completely.
      Also, the concept that all the ‘rules’ of life and universes are thought up, invented and aren’t necessarily bad if fully known and understood.
      I believe these things have great value.
      Mark

      • vinaire  On December 4, 2013 at 8:54 AM

        I get you. I call this area ‘unknowable’ because I don’t want to pretend that I can know it by using such words as potential, theta, static, etc.

        One cannot really isolate oneself from life and hide in “one’s universe” as Scientology seems to advise. There is no island of individuality.

        I have started to look at this same area through the use of Subject Clearing. See

        https://vinaire.me/2013/11/26/mindful-subject-clearing/#comment-14992

        .

      • vinaire  On December 4, 2013 at 1:40 PM

        Mark… “But the real value of the paper is in the treatment of oneness and individuality. In the self imposed implants/imprints which molded one’s beingness in the early times, especially the accomplishments through long efforts.”

        Ok, I shall go through the rest of your paper and comment on it.

        That is great about your new understanding of the word “compassion”. That concept seems to be missing in Scientology. “Affinity” doesn’t mean quite the same thing. “Affinity” has the condition of exchange tied to it, whereas, compassion is totally unconditional.

        .

  • vinaire  On December 4, 2013 at 1:48 PM

    Mark… “Suddenly out of nothing there was the decision to be, to continue to be. That was the invention of time.”

    The idea of “decision” is superfluous. When something appears out of nothing, it is so because it is being. So, through mindfulness we shall see only the fact of “being”. The idea of decision is an additive.

    Hubbard used the additive of decision because he assumed Cause to be there. Well, how does Cause gets to be there?

    I do not see Cause to be there in the beginning. I just see things appearing and disappearing.

    .

    • Chris Thompson  On December 4, 2013 at 6:20 PM

      VInaire: I just see things appearing and disappearing.

      Chris: This is good “obnosis” without assumptions.

    • Chris Thompson  On December 4, 2013 at 6:30 PM

      Dropping one’s assumptions in favor of looking and seeing what is there without added assumptions takes practice and a bit of getting used to. Our assumptions are put there to smooth the inconsistencies in our lives and the product of that is a ballooning sphere of considerations. “Obnosis” from Scientology or “mindfulness” as we discuss it on this blog smooth inconsistencies like removing rocks from a field and result in both smoothing the inconsistencies in our lives and also shrinking the balloon of considerations. I believe my metaphor can hold up when I call this balloon the “self.” The ballooning “self,” the individuated individual, egotism: These for me are the cause of strife and friction between one another. Shrinking the big sense of self is important when seeking harmony in life. This how I would describe the path I am trying to walk.

      • vinaire  On December 4, 2013 at 6:48 PM

        Good post!

        • Chris Thompson  On December 4, 2013 at 8:25 PM

          Thank you Vinaire. I see ideologies as an entire subset of ignorance, substituting mental constructs, entire “Rube Goldbergs,” to do our thinking for us rather than looking and seeing things as they are without assumptions.

        • vinaire  On December 4, 2013 at 9:46 PM

          Well expressed!

        • Chris Thompson  On December 5, 2013 at 12:00 AM

          You really nailed it when you wrote “seeing things as they are without assumptions.” I am getting a lot of mileage out of this.

        • vinaire  On December 5, 2013 at 5:15 AM

          That is wonderful. I am getting a lot of mileage out of it too.

        • Chris Thompson  On December 5, 2013 at 12:42 AM

          LOL !

  • Chris Thompson  On December 4, 2013 at 6:18 PM

    Vinaire: So, through mindfulness we shall see only the fact of “being”. The idea of decision is an additive.

    Chris: I believe this can be consistent with what we would observe doing “obnosis drilling.”

  • vinaire  On December 4, 2013 at 9:57 PM

    > Mark…”That was the invention of time. One thought following another in the one way arrow of time.”

    Time is simply an aspect of existence. When there is no existence there is no time. A characteristic of time is the sequence attributed to the variations in motion

    • Chris Thompson  On December 5, 2013 at 12:08 AM

      Mark, Vinay has a much much better ability to pull thoughts apart and to organize and to analyze than I. I have kind of been busy plus hanging back with regard to the critique that you asked about regarding your paper. I did read it and like it very much. There is nothing wrong with your understanding and if you mean for that understanding to grow, and I can see that you do, you only have to continue. The path is ripe with the fruit of knowledge and it changes and changes and changes. We will have many good and lively discussions if you want to, but I do not want to be put in the position of “critiquing” a real seeker of wisdom such as yourself. We each have wisdom, some here and some there, if we simply discuss our interests with an earnest yearning for knowledge we will teach and learn from each other.

      • MarkNR  On December 5, 2013 at 10:56 AM

        Chris”
        Critique is not what I was asking for, although it is gladly and mindfully accepted. Additional and different ideas are most desired. I find my ability increasing to sensibly accept the pointing out of errors and to consider it a favor. An ability I find lacking in many of those around me.
        I do consider later portions of my article to be of greater importance, especially oneness and ARC. That discovery has had the most profound effect on myself and was also mentioned in the article on Affinity posted earlier.
        I always look forward to your comments.
        Mark

        • vinaire  On December 5, 2013 at 1:20 PM

          I am slowly working through your article. I am sorry it is taking time.

          Time is so ponderous, you know.

        • MarkNR  On December 5, 2013 at 4:20 PM

          We don’t have the time to ponder the meaning of time. I wonder what it will be like in my future to recall this very moment. I’m getting a headache.
          Mark

        • Chris Thompson  On December 5, 2013 at 5:34 PM

          LOL!

    • Chris Thompson  On December 5, 2013 at 12:15 AM

      Regarding time, I am learning how bonded that time is to space so am learning when and if I can even separate them. It can be convenient to think of time as an arrow on a piece of graph paper but I find that a fractal model works better and is more satisfying to me. Space-time, like all Nature, seems to manifest in a dynamic, recursive, and self similar way. In other words, similar to circular, but not circular, space-time is curved and turns back, maybe not quite upon itself but nevertheless turns back so that if I peer off into the distance and look far enough I imagine that I may see the back of my head. I am fond of repeating and everyone is probably tired of reading me write that life is not normally laid out quite right. The new kind of science that we are on the cutting edge of might lay out existence in quite a different way than we had been taught. And why wouldn’t it? Hasn’t science always done that? Now at the cusp of the beginning of the “information age” how much more will science reshape our perception of our worlds?

      • vinaire  On December 5, 2013 at 7:50 AM

        Existence is basically MOTION. If there were no motion in atoms or in fundamental particles there would be no matter, no form, no persistence, no space, and no time.

      • MarkNR  On December 5, 2013 at 10:39 AM

        I feel as though there should be some simple, straightforward principals of time which are primary, with more abstract, nebulous aspects being secondary. I cannot seem to get a handle on which should be more primary, the abstract, or the more solid.
        With regards to mass, it seems that the solidity arises from the more basic, abstract ideas.
        It may be that the intention to continue was primary and the ‘how to continue’ is secondary. Also, the idea of primary and secondary implies that time was necessary for the rules of time to be laid forth. Circular, confused thinking.

        Ponderous.
        Mark

        • Chris Thompson  On December 5, 2013 at 11:00 AM

          MNR: I feel as though there should be some simple, straightforward principals of time which are primary, with more abstract, nebulous aspects being secondary.

          CT: I think you are right. The approach that Vinay and the rest of us blogging here are employing is to mindfully notice what is an assumption. We believe that underlying removed assumptions lies greater relative truth. But relax and don’t worry about it. Allow these assumptions to unstack naturally through mindfulness, watchfulness, obnosefulness and have a good time. hahaha

        • MarkNR  On December 6, 2013 at 2:05 PM

          Chris:
          Thanks, I think I’m getting better at it. Vin’s Subject Clearing, done just after a session, and then reviewing that session, I believe may prove very fruitful indeed. Sort of like doing a CS-1 post-op and then going back and looking for more. This may reduce or nearly eliminate BPC.
          Data of great magnitude.
          Mark

        • Chris Thompson  On December 6, 2013 at 3:32 PM

          This is an excellent example of simply using what one knows (tools), putting them together with more tools and getting on with watching, looking, listening, being mindful. Your post has reminded me of something I noticed which was that “going for a great ‘truth’ ” can be frustrating since we can’t really tell where to look. Also, there doesn’t seem to be a great “truth” condensed and buried out there to find. What there seems to be is understanding that truth is conditioned, relative, and impermanent. Working with that understanding helps me maintain equilibrium and the desire to continue. Vinay’s insistence on removing assumptions and inconsistencies is something we can do and is in fact what good auditing does. I’m watching this occurring while I write and see the condensation happening right before my mind’s eye(s). And now I’m watching it morph with time as I watch it. I still don’t get the mechanics, I just see what is occurring. I believe I will continue.

        • MarkNR  On December 20, 2013 at 3:10 PM

          Thanks, Chris. I get lucky every now and then.
          I don’t agree with everything Ron wrote, but one thing stuck with me. Paraphrase. “It’s fine to have an open mind, as long as that openness doesn’t consist of holes (in your head).” A balance between mindfulness and the ability to decide is important to me. There is value in the confidence of knowing what you know.
          You know a lot. Recognize it.
          Mark

        • Chris Thompson  On December 20, 2013 at 10:50 PM

          Thank you Mark. You know a lot too, that is plain to read. What I see is a big universe for which my metaphors are not laid out very well. I am trying for better metaphors for the processes that I am aware of.

        • MarkNR  On December 21, 2013 at 12:40 AM

          Thanks Chris.
          I’m thinking of manufacturing personal watercraft. (Jet Skis) I found a plastics mfg. who makes a polycarbonate that is as strong under impact as fiberglass at half the weight and can be vacuum molded. Kymco out of Taiwan is an excellent small engine maker with a very reasonable cost structure.
          How do you like the name “Seanami” Catchy I think.
          No one makes a 5-600cc watercraft any more, and in my experience, the more nimble ones are more fun than the 9-1300cc waterbikes.
          My enthusiasm and reach has grown lately.
          Have a wonderful Christmas season.
          Love to all.
          Mark

        • Chris Thompson  On December 21, 2013 at 10:21 AM

          Excellent ideas and name. If you solve capital, marketing, marketing and sales, and service after the sale you may have a complete package.

          I wonder if people would buy even smaller machines?

        • Chris Thompson  On December 5, 2013 at 11:09 AM

          MNR: Circular, confused thinking.

          Chris: When this happens as it does to us all, relax and go out in the kitchen and tell your wife you lover her and go for a walk and eat a cookie but not too many cookies… “Take a bath,” as Archimedes is reported to have done before his discovery of the displacement of water and try not needlessly piss off any Roman soldiers. These epiphanies don’t seem to respond to angst.

        • MarkNR  On December 5, 2013 at 12:05 PM

          Very good advice. I am going to repair that grounding conductor on the electrical service. Work settles me. Thanks.
          Mark

    • Chris Thompson  On December 5, 2013 at 12:18 AM

      Scientology has taught a model of existence with roots in snippets of other religions and I believe this needs remodeling as well.

    • MarkNR  On December 5, 2013 at 10:25 AM

      Time seems to be a subject of question lately.
      Physical existence, basically, as I understand it, would consist of width, breadth, length, and duration. For something to exist it must have duration. In Hubbards philosophy, the primary ingredient for duration is change. Something must be physically different from one moment to the next in order to physically exist even if that difference is only a change in relative position to other objects. This is one aspect of existence that never seemed intuitive to me. 3 dimensions seemed matter of fact in order to have substance, but this one seemed somewhat artificial, invented.
      I think of time more as compiled events, all adding on top of each other. Before an event occurs, it is variable, an idea only, subject to the creativity of an individual or individuals. Once there is occurrence, it seems that it is locked in, impossible to completely forget. Change seems to be more of a necessity when it comes to storage of information, keeping the past organized, in order. To prevent everything from running together. Also, to keep track of cause and effect. Confusion and inconsistencies would run rampant without the order of time. Simultaneousness of events doesn’t seem workable to me.
      This is a subject that I don’t have locked down. Many questions.
      Mark

      • Chris Thompson  On December 5, 2013 at 10:39 AM

        MNR: This is a subject that I don’t have locked down. Many questions.

        CT: Excellent!

      • Chris Thompson  On December 5, 2013 at 10:40 AM

        MNR: Time seems to be a subject of question lately.

        CT: I like your sense of humor!

        • MarkNR  On December 5, 2013 at 11:47 AM

          I was wondering if anyone would catch that.
          Mark

      • Chris Thompson  On December 5, 2013 at 10:42 AM

        MNR: This is one aspect of existence that never seemed intuitive to me

        CT: My best epiphanies have not been initially intuitive. Quantum physics is not intuitive. And I try to keep in mind that physics is science and not philosophy.

        • MarkNR  On December 5, 2013 at 11:32 AM

          Thanks, Chris
          Most of my most significant gains came when something was not intuitive, full of inconsistencies.
          As more data was viewed, clarity unfolded. When I avoided something that didn’t seem to make sense, little or no gain occurred. Often, the original postulate wasn’t enough. The original consideration underlying the believed original consideration often had to be ferreted out. Usually a very subtle thought or something mentioned in passing by someone else.I have discovered lately that conscious effort can halt my discovery. I have also discovered that simply allowing something to come to me has very limited workability. There is an in between effort and allowing. It is a doingness without trying as the famous Yoda pointed out.
          I have been practicing scanning events over time with no effort. Simply look and see but with a direction in mind. It is much easier than ‘searching’ as I had done before. Meter steering with one eye, looking for an identical read while scanning has been helpful. I have been learning to incorporate it with no dependance. It takes some practice.
          Mark

        • Chris Thompson  On December 5, 2013 at 12:12 PM

          Very good points Mark. Vin and I are calling that in between area of attention “Mindfulness” which is just a word for trying to listen and pay attention. You are describing to me the same thing.

        • MarkNR  On December 5, 2013 at 4:29 PM

          I find more common ground between us each day. When we have a similar idea, and you word it a different way, I gain a deeper understanding of the principal.
          Thanks, Mark
          PS I have been writing in generalistic principals for the most part. In the future I will give more detailed examples of occurrances I have viewed. There have been a few interesting ones. Like the time I got tricked into falling into this gooey sticky muck and my rivals laughed. Seems they had planned it all along. My sleek four legs weren’t well built for getting out.
          Mark

        • Chris Thompson  On December 5, 2013 at 5:36 PM

          MNR: Like the time I got tricked into falling into this gooey sticky muck and my rivals laughed

          CT: hahaha well, Vinay and I would never dream of doing something like that to you with these word games! (wink)

        • MarkNR  On December 6, 2013 at 12:08 AM

          Chris, Vin:
          Thanks, it’s nice to know you have friends you can trust, UH, HMM.

          That incident tracked back to an earlier incident of trickery and humiliation. And I found what I was looking for. It was the first time I got the idea “You won’t be laughing after I get you back. Before that, when there were winners and losers we all laughed. But not that time. I had betrayed a friend because I wanted the credit for being smart, and I got caught. I had messed up a meadow that he had spent a long time preparing. Before that was a game in which trickery and deceit were the game, but it was fun and everyone knew what we were doing, but the seed was planted. This was before star and planet type universes.
          I have found that there are many indicators of a final EP but the one I trust the most is a great big long laugh, often a line charge. It feels good.
          Mark

        • Chris Thompson  On December 6, 2013 at 12:39 AM

          Mark: I have found that there are many indicators of a final EP but the one I trust the most is a great big long laugh, often a line charge. It feels good.

          Chris: Agreed. This is good advice. But what if the “final EP” were to be relative, conditioned and impermanent? Just asking what if it were? Could we live with that? Would our, could our paradigm for this whole game change? And to what? I’m asking what if the “truth” turns out to be and understanding about the relative conditioned impermanence of the universe? Can we use that for a good and useful turn of events?

        • MarkNR  On December 6, 2013 at 1:01 AM

          Hopefully changing bodies won’t wipe out all the work I have done. LOL
          Mark

        • vinaire  On December 6, 2013 at 6:52 AM

          It would be interesting to clear up words like, GAME, TRICK, TRICKERY, DECEIT, BETRAYAL, HUMILIATION, WINNER, LOSER, SMART, LAUGH, and related words per Subject Clearing.

          .

        • MarkNR  On December 6, 2013 at 11:45 AM

          Vin:
          I have preached over and over about the value of a structured, methodical and systematic method of enlightenment and the importance of applying long term effort. And here I am again humbled by your wisdom.
          I shall apply your advice. It can only make things better, possibly greatly so.
          Mark

        • MarkNR  On December 6, 2013 at 12:58 AM

          Here is one aspect of what I understand mindfulness and the Tao to include. I have been doing this to some extent all my life without really realizing it, but now I recognize it.
          When I gather, observe, study data, I look at each individual part for truth, accuracy, workability. Each sentence, or even half sentence, in it’s own space and time so to speak. I also look at the combination as a whole. Two sentences will have 3 meanings to convey. One for each and one for the combination of both. This is a generality of course. Sometimes it requires two or more sentences to make one datum and it could take several to complete one overall meaning. Sometimes just one. But you get the idea.
          This has become important, in my opinion, especially lately with discussions about Scn. and LRH, especially on Marty’s blog.
          Some say that everything he produced is tainted and worthless or even harmful due to his errors and/or his supposed evils. Some say much of his work was misconstrued/misused and it is all or most of it golden, Some say it is somewhere in between.
          I say look at each datum tor it’s truth, each principal for it’s wisdom. Sometimes every word. I think KSW should have said “we have much” or “some of the technology.” I have not found all of Lao Tsu’s work to be accurate, for me. I agree with much of Vinaire’s work and believe it to be of great value. But I examine each detail in it’s individuality. The source of information has little affect on my determination of usefulness, good or bad. Trust has little room in my quest for wisdom.
          I hope this gives some insight into my way of thinking and manner of work.
          Thanks, Mark

        • Chris Thompson  On December 6, 2013 at 8:53 AM

          This is all we ask of ourselves or anyone, simply be Mindful and strive for a more consistent view of the World.

          I think it can be distilled to two main points which are 1. Mindfulness, and 2. Assumptionlessness. (I made up that word but do not expect it to catch on since it is too unwieldy. )

        • vinaire  On December 6, 2013 at 1:32 PM

          Mindfulness is application of the Scientific Method to the Metaphysical Universe.

          .

        • MarkNR  On December 6, 2013 at 1:50 PM

          And that reminds me of one of the first confusions and ARC breaks I had with the CoS. In ’69’ I read Dianetics. At the very beginning of the book was an article on The Scientific Method by one of Ron’s favorite scientists, I forget which. Now it’s gone, along with an article by Ron at the end of the book on social Dianetics. Those articles are some of the primary reasons I began to study and practice Scn.
          ‘Someone’ decided to remove them.
          Mark

        • Chris Thompson  On December 6, 2013 at 2:43 PM

          Excellent!

      • Chris Thompson  On December 5, 2013 at 10:53 AM

        Mark: Once there is occurrence, it seems that it is locked in, impossible to completely forget.

        Chris: This seems like a possibly fruitful vector to explore. There is a field the math guys call the wave function. Lately we seem to be trying to call it the Higgs Field. Bits seem to condense from this field such as electrons. Precise bits which are always identically the same bits. hahaha Possibly thought is condensed from this same field?

        • MarkNR  On December 5, 2013 at 11:45 AM

          I DON’T KNOW IF THIS IS RIGHT, but I have lately thought of the most basic, smallest part of physical existence as vibrations. Not something vibrating but a vibration existing as itself. The quality of the vibration determining it’s properties.
          When I was younger, I always thought of energy in a Newtonian sense as being the motion of something on some level or other. As I looked over some of the aspects of quantum physics, I gathered an idea of the unreality of matter. You and Vin have started me re-thinking these ideas. There are more ways to look at it.
          Mark

      • Chris Thompson  On December 5, 2013 at 10:55 AM

        I am curious what the quantum (smallest bit) of thought is. Would this bit be the interface of physics and metaphysics? (I use metaphysics loosely) And am curious about intention. What is the quantum of intention? And Is there such quanta? Scientology for me is mostly religion that dabbles in philosophy of itself. Hubbard’s applied religious philosophy is macro in size while addressing what is in my opinion a quanta. It has not gotten a good result. Smart guys like you give Scientology credit for what you have worked out.

  • vinaire  On December 5, 2013 at 1:17 PM

    For me, the concept to understand is motion. What is motion in itself?

    • Chris Thompson  On December 5, 2013 at 2:47 PM

      Consecutive appearance then disappearance of an object or idea in a different location relative to the previous location.

      I do not see motion as other than an illusion of movement. The change of location may be done by quantum Planck length jumps with the Planck second being the smallest meanigful length of time. I like 2nd transformer’s hypothesis of expansion and contraction and I like my own whirling sine wave of particles or waves changing polarity into and out of this part of the universe.

      • vinaire  On December 5, 2013 at 4:51 PM

        What is an electromagnetic wave? Is it creating space and time?

        • Chris Thompson  On December 5, 2013 at 6:03 PM

          I am trying to rehab some high school chemistry having to do with electron shells also called principle energy levels. I am trying to understand how a free electron particle behaves, how a wave function behaves before collapsing, and whether electrons move when they change energy states from one electron shell to another about the nucleus of an atom. There may be something in this to teach me more about motion.

        • vinaire  On December 5, 2013 at 6:50 PM

          Motion seems to be appearance and disappearance and then reappearance.

  • vinaire  On December 5, 2013 at 1:55 PM

    In continuation with
    https://vinaire.me/2013/11/14/questioning-scientology-knowledge/#comment-15018

    .

    (1) There is multiple appearances and disappearances..
    (2) There is a sequence to these multiple appearances and disappearances.
    (3) We see these sequences as time.
    (4) The lines in a computer code provide such a sequence.
    (5) When that code is run, that sequence appears as time.

    • Chris Thompson  On December 5, 2013 at 2:49 PM

      The journey of a thousand miles to my obscure ideas begins with a single step! Thank you!

  • vinaire  On December 5, 2013 at 8:25 PM

    From https://vinaire.me/2013/11/14/questioning-scientology-knowledge/#comment-14954

    > “Thoughts flooded. This was fun, interesting. This was also the beginning of beingness.”

    The comments on thoughts are also thoughts. The idea that beingness began is also a thought. In short, we simply have appearance of motion and motion is transforming into thoughts. The moment something appears it is being. Motion is being, thoughts are being, whatever is derived from thoughts is also being.

    This is just my feedback.

    .

  • vinaire  On December 5, 2013 at 8:28 PM

    Motion appears as waves, which then collapses into particles of thoughts.

    • Chris Thompson  On December 5, 2013 at 11:50 PM

      What does the EKG measure? Waves or particles?

    • vinaire  On December 6, 2013 at 6:41 AM

      From Wikipedia:

      Electrocardiography (ECG or EKG from Greek: kardia, meaning heart) is a transthoracic (across the thorax or chest) interpretation of the electrical activity of the heart over a period of time, as detected by electrodes attached to the surface of the skin and recorded by a device external to the body. The recording produced by this noninvasive procedure is termed an electrocardiogram (also ECG or EKG).

      An ECG is used to measure the heart’s electrical conduction system. It picks up electrical impulses generated by the depolarization of cardiac tissue and translates into a waveform. The waveform is then used to measure the rate and regularity of heartbeats, as well as the size and position of the chambers, the presence of any damage to the heart, and the effects of drugs or devices used to regulate the heart, such as a pacemaker.

      Most ECGs are performed for diagnostic or research purposes on human hearts, but may also be performed on animals, usually for diagnosis of heart abnormalities or research.

      .

      • Chris Thompson  On December 6, 2013 at 9:11 AM

        Haha, yup. So whataya think? Is observing so particles?

        • vinaire  On December 6, 2013 at 5:50 PM

          It is picking up electrical impulses generated by the depolarization of cardiac tissue and translating into a waveform.

          What we see is an interpretation, as a waveform, of whatever is going on. It is picking up electrical impulses. Now we need to look up what an ELECTRICAL IMPULSE is!

          .

        • Chris Thompson  On December 6, 2013 at 5:52 PM

          Now we need to look up what an ELECTRICAL IMPULSE is!

          i’m with ya.

  • MarkNR  On December 6, 2013 at 11:35 AM

    This was a comment I posted on Marty’s blog during a discussion about South African natives, children, and psychotics. I think it applies to this discussion.

    Hello Marildi:
    I understand what you, and Ron, were trying to get across.
    My take?
    Circumstance, broadly speaking, is the primary driver of how much case and which areas of case are in restimulation and held in restimulation. How un-understandable and confusing one’s environ. is can affect how analytical or confused one is from moment to moment. As one handles and understands his environ. he comes uptone. As one grows out of childhood, he also gaines more discipline over his own case and becomes more analytical. A child, as with a psychotic, and many so called ‘natives’, has little discipline over his own case. In some environs. there is little ethics presence or incentive to impose self discipline.
    This applies broadly and there are more or fewer exceptions in different environs.
    Makes sense to me. I have seen this principal in action many times.
    In reading Ron, OR ANYONE ELSE, look for and duplicate the actual communication that is being conveyed. Looking for errors can blind one to the actual truths. A pot hole is easily repaired and shouldn’t close the entire highway.
    Mark

    • vinaire  On December 6, 2013 at 6:09 PM

      What is the boundary that separates environment from the person? This is something very interesting to examine.

      In my opinion, there is no such boundary. There is just a continuum.

      “Self-environment” is a system that is reacting continually to itself. It is dynamically adjusting to itself like the moon, which is continually adjusting its position while falling toward the earth. The system shall continue in its motion and shall not change in its behavior until the fixed potentials present in the system are dissolved.

      These fixed potentials can be in the environment, or in the self.

      .

  • vinaire  On December 6, 2013 at 1:48 PM

    In reference to:
    https://vinaire.me/2013/11/14/questioning-scientology-knowledge/#comment-15087

    .

    In my career as a word clearer, I realized that the procedure of word clearing promoted mindfulness. I have taken advantage of that characteristics to structure SUBJECT CLEARING in such a way that it promotes mindfulness when looking at a whole subject.

    .

    • vinaire  On December 6, 2013 at 1:52 PM

      I find that SUBJECT CLEARING provides a context in which definitions provided in a dictionary can themselves be revised toward greater consistency.

      This is specially the case with words in the subjects that make up Metaphysics.

      .

  • vinaire  On December 6, 2013 at 6:31 PM

    https://vinaire.me/2013/11/14/questioning-scientology-knowledge/#comment-15099

    > (Mark) … “And that reminds me of one of the first confusions and ARC breaks I had with the CoS. In ’69′ I read Dianetics. At the very beginning of the book was an article on The Scientific Method by one of Ron’s favorite scientists, I forget which. Now it’s gone, along with an article by Ron at the end of the book on social Dianetics. Those articles are some of the primary reasons I began to study and practice Scn. ‘Someone’ decided to remove them.”

    .
    Here you go. In this PDF version you can search whatever you want.

    DMSMH (1950 Version)

    .

    • MarkNR  On December 20, 2013 at 9:53 AM

      Vin:
      Here you go. In this PDF version you can search whatever you want.
      DMSMH (1950 Version)
      Mark:
      Thanks Vin. You are a golden resource.

  • Elizabeth Hamre  On December 17, 2013 at 12:22 AM

    ”’Now we need to look up what an ELECTRICAL IMPULSE is!”’ Are you looking for what causes that electrical impulse ???? 🙂
    Tell me first your reality on that subject… than we can go from there. 🙂

    .

  • vinaire  On December 17, 2013 at 7:02 AM

    I am off to New Zealand!

    • Chris Thompson  On December 17, 2013 at 8:47 AM

      Bon Voyage!

    • Elizabeth Hamre  On December 17, 2013 at 5:47 PM

      have a wonderful experience!

    • vinaire  On December 17, 2013 at 6:07 PM

      Thank you. The whole family of four is going. We are leaving on Friday. I am very much looking forward to it.

      • Elizabeth Hamre  On January 14, 2014 at 5:26 PM

        When are you coming back? miss you!

        • vinaire  On January 14, 2014 at 7:09 PM

          I came back from New Zealand on Jan 2, and I have been writing on my blog.

          You are following this blog, so you should get all posts and comments from this blog via email. If not then you can click on the STAT symbol on your blog, go to READER, and edit the parameters for my blog as follows:

          Send new posts by email: INSTANTLY
          Send new comments by email: ON

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On January 14, 2014 at 8:04 PM

          Thanks… good to hear from you and will see if what I did has corrected whatever.

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