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2x: “I think the quantum phenomenon has an enormous similarity to theta. The key similarity being the quality of probability without dimension or substance.”
What is “the quality of probability without dimension or substance” in laymen terms?
I think that the “language” of Quantum mechanics is quite obfuscating. You seem to be saying is that all you have is a hypothesis.
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V:”You seem to be saying is that all you have is a hypothesis.”
I’ve never said anything more. And I’ve never relied on a self-formulated axiom to support a further conclusion, either.
As with any starting hypothesis, it is based on observations, both personal and of others. These observations weren’t made in a scientific setting as no scientific setting exists to record the observations.
But neither was any observation of Buddha or any other -osophy, -ism or -ology that anyone can bring in to this discussion. That playing field is level.
Since we can equally discount each others personal ideas of beingness based on experiential bias, that no longer seems to be a worthwhile discussion point.
Fortunately, in the QM field of experimentation we do have the kind of scientific observation that can’t be easily discounted. Regardless of how you currently view conscious reality, physical reality, and the origin of the universe, a careful study of QM experimental data and interpretations should provide a solid foundation for formulating any new hypothesis or strengthening any old one.
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Scientific method is based on consistency among observations of physical nature. The experiments are there to test that consistency.
Similarly, mindfulness is based on consistency among observations of metaphysical nature. Thetan is supposedly a metaphysical phenomenon. Hubbard looked at it as a starting point. You seem to look at it as a starting point too.
To me the idea of considering thetan as a ‘unit’, and then postulating many such units is inconsistent with saying that there no MEST associated with the concept of thetan.
There seems to be a gradient of MEST in the dimension of abstraction, which is associated with the idea of a Thetan.
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2x: “Just bear in mind as you wield your razor of Occam that what you can’t demonstrate today does not imply that you won’t be able to demonstrate it tomorrow.”
Vin: Is that an axiom or just a postulate of yours?
2x: “It’s an observation. It’s been made by many before us.”
What you cannot demonstrate is an inconsistency from the viewpoint of scientific method. A hypothesis is not a valid theory until it has been demonstrated.
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A thetan is basically a hypothesis. To consider it a valid theory is inconsistent.
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The attention should be on demonstrating the hypothesis of THETAN rather than on defending it as if it is a valid theory.
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2x: “A thetan could make a copy of itself. That is like a postulate but different from the action of a postulate. A thetan could also postulate another thetan but that does not equate to the thetan being a postulate.”
I would like to see a demonstration of a thetan postulating another thetan.
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Hello Vin, what you ask is quite possible.
Not so much from me, but from yourself.
In theory (in experimentation) can be
really do much, much, much more.
Never regret the past.
Life is in you today.
And you make your tomorrow.
Nic ARC infinity
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Nic, I believe you are referring to the following post.
https://vinaire.me/2013/12/06/scientific-method-and-mindfulness/#comment-15214
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In my opinion, postulates define the thetan. These postulates also limit the thetan. The thetan is that set of postulates.
When I refer to myself, am referring to a set of postulates that are acting in unison or, which are impinging on each other.
These postulates become simplified to the degree resistance among them is dissolved.
What is this resistance? That would be something interesting to take a close look at.
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What is that keeps one postulate separate from another postulate and prevents them from discharging against each other?
What is the bounday of a postulate?
This is a question very similar to what is the boundary of a photon?
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My guess is that the basic mistake lies on trying to define life.
My guess is that life cannot be defined, thus, it cannot be demonstrated either.
The moment you try to define it, you start to encapsulate it and then you lose it.
I also know that is a contradiction which blocks any attempt to make any scientific studies, but that is what I´m wrestling with right now. It´s like looking at the boundary of an inverted black hole.
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That is a very good observation, Rafael.
Life is basically consistency. It cannot be defined, because it is what one inherently is.
What stand out are inconsistencies. One should simply be focusing on inconsistencies and resolving them one by one.
Once a consistency is resolved it merges into the background of what one inherently is. It is no use speculating about that.
So, forget about trying to define a thetan. Simply focus on what is inconsistent and work on resolving it.
To think of oneself as some idea called “thetan” is inconsistent.
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That is how I see it, too. And then, looking at the manifestations of life, it seems that as they become more fixed and predictable is when they have lost most of their inherent life and potential.
As the “Thetan” becomes more recognizable, it has less life.
When we try to know ourselves, or be known, we commit suicide Ha ha ha!!!
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………
…………Oh shit, that is what I spent most of my life doing, and of course also trying to be not known, etc,etc…Oh God, what a dumbmmy!!
This reminds me…..Dennis Stephens made a great point with his games manual:
The basic games matrix was something like
Know …………………………………….. Not know
Make something known ……………. Make it not known
I´ll take a mindful look at it, I left it at a flat point starting level five some years ago……
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That is the greatest cognition one can have!
Well done, Rafael. 🙂 🙂 🙂
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TROM was a bit nebulous for me to spend enough time on. I thought a C/S series could be researched and written on it. Also, I was thinking it could be audited at first and then soloed, as with NOTs. Just my thoughts from not enough experience.
Mark
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I had the same problem with it back then, Mark. There was a point where I got kind of lost, even after having some fucking amazing releases which I still
can not explain, like big chunks of bank which just vanished before I could get enough time to turn back and look at them. Really startling.
I think it can only be done by very experienced auditors, so geting started as a Pc seems a good idea, I hope this time I will be able to get a deeper grasp of it.
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Rafael:
I get you. I BELIEVE there are many areas and methods of handling those areas of undesirable case. And I use case as a generality meaning parts of oneself that one does not have full control and use of. TROM, Super Scio. Ind. clearing processes, KHTK and Mindfulness, Ind. Scn. etc.
I, personally, right now, am using a structured, methodical method of observing and understanding my past existence and returning as much as possible to useful knowledge. My biggest targets are old, stuck, many times reinforced opinions. Often called basic considerations. Vin’s writings and others have assisted me greatly with my work.
It is not the only work I will do, just the work I’m doing right now. I believe that to escape the foibles and pitfalls of this or any universe, one must master it, all of it. One can be the bad effect of anything one is not hatted in. The physics of universes and the physics of how one interacts with and gets entangled with them is one area that must be discovered. Vin, Chris and 2ndxer are working diligently on that one. I think the greatest guarantee of success in any field is the ability to apply long term effort toward a goal. Without that, no advancement is possible. I also believe that Scn. and other existing studies of life, done honestly and wisely, may be enough to get one started. That eventually, to reach a higher state one must take it on as a research project of sorts, by learning, observing, and understanding life.
I figure a few hundred years to get into pretty good shape. I’m in it for the long haul, really got nothing better to do.
Well, you know me pretty much, what you up to lately?
Mark
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Thanks Vin, that is what usually happens during exchanges with The Unknowables Ha ha ha!!
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🙂
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Thetan can be a very good description of WHAT one IS being, but it is not a description of what one basically is. That cannot,……… should not be described.
Oh shit!!
Seems like now I´m agreeing ALMOST completely with The Old Man!!!
(Bending on my knees…..):
Our Father who art in heaven;
Hallowed be Thy Name;
Thy kingdom come;
Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven;………………..
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The truth is that even “individuality” is a form of identity.
The Old Man threw us a curve in Scn 8-8008 when he wrote the section “Individuality versus Identity.”
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Yeah and that is inconsistent with the Thetan being basically a Static, if static is defined as having no position in time or space no individuality can be proven to exist there either. Static is the undescribable, thus, unknowable, unless you turn it into something lesser than static.
Of course you can say that you KNOW this no-thing is actually a thing from outside this universe, implying that you can see what is inside and outside without any scientific proof and then you are above science and can start a religion.
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Rafael: ” . . . lesser than static.
Ct: LOL!
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LOL! Today you are on a roll, Rafael!
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Yeeeees !
Down the hill ! Ha ha ha ha!!!
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It is quite a breakthrough! I have never seen you so happy before. 🙂
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Enjoy the ride!
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Yes I will brother 🙂
Time to sleep, have an early start tomorrow
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Mark:
That is the way I see it also, and I´m in it for the long haul too.
It´s very easy to get lost in it, that seems to happen to me all the time!
At this point I´ve reached some sort of big pool of nothingness where those basic considerations which are left are very hard to come by and I´m basically living my life mindfully, not following any particular method, but with my eyes wide open to anything which might appear at the limits of my consciousness.
I will take another deep look at TROM and try to advance in math in the meantime.
And, of course, visit you guys here every chance I have. Cheers man!!
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Greetings Rafael! Your post describes one reason that I’ve tended to rant about existence not being laid out right. There always seems to be yet another undercut to understanding who we really are. Satisfied and happy now with a sense of myself, and a little weary as you describe of being unable to describe what is indescribable from here, I’ve turned my attention to what can be known and described. I am trying to rehabilitate my social and math and physics education and just sort of give it another go. I am constantly running into smart people who understand much more than I about the world, and this is in ways that can be learned and so I am trying to learn. I am on an Ayn Rand vector just now which I haven’t brought up because it doesn’t fit in with these other things we are studying. And I’m even teaching myself a favorite tune of mine on the Dobro guitar. I’ve been listening to Indian political and folk music and developed a taste for Cumbia! hahahaha!
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That is a beautiful tune, man I play a little bit of guitar too, and I really really want to have some time to continue studying math, they seem to be the basic tool to study what can be known and described, as you say. The best form to describe reality.
In the meantime, we can always laugh about ourselves and dance a little cumbia too. Ha ha ha!!!
A big hug for you, my friend.
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Individuality is not something different from identity.
Individuality is an aspect of identity.
Anything that creates a unit is part of the identity of that unit.
If thetan is an awareness of awareness unit, it is a bundled up awareness.
That bundle is an identity
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Vinay: Individuality is not something different from identity.
Chris: And neither is individuation different. This is a great inconsistency in the subject of Scientology that the individual is exalted while individuation is abhorred.
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Chris: This is a great inconsistency in the subject of Scientology that the individual is exalted while individuation is abhorred.
R: That seems to be one of the basic foundations of the church of scientology.
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Yes brother and I don’t know how I blocked that dissonance from my mind for years of participation. The fact that I did that is so troubling to me in present time that it makes me wonder what and how much I am blocking cognitive dissonance from my current state of mind. Seriously, what primrose path am I currently walking?
Answer: Tautology. The primrose path that we might walking is always one. We do what makes sense to us and while we do it, it makes sense and then later it doesn’t and we go, “Oh, how could I?”
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Ha ha ha!! you are so fucking right, I´ve tried to understand this so that I can find a surefire method of geting out of my own shit fast, but there seems to be no way arround it:
When we are inside, we are inside.
And:
When we are outside, we are outside.
And that is all there is to it
Except now I´m wondering: Will there be a day when I discover this beautiful cake I´m eating is actually shit?
And the answer is: Most probably yes.
So, now I find more comfort in doubt than I will ever again find in certainty
Certainty was one of my goals in life, now certainty seems more akin to stagnation.
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Rafael: So, now I find more comfort in doubt than I will ever again find in certainty
Chris: You are so right. Letting go of that fixation on crystallized certainty lets me feel the world moving again. There’s a kind of vertigo that I feel when I notice I’m holding on too strongly but that evaporates and I get my “sea legs” and learn to move with the ship instead of cursing that it rocks.
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That is the spirit Bro!!!
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You are individuals but you are not allowed to individuate from the collective of the Church of Scientology.
“The Borg are a collection of species that have been turned into cybernetic organisms functioning as drones of the Collective, or the hive.” ~ Borg (Star Trek)
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Can you please move this to the Identity thread?
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Done.
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Thank you!
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Does E-meter reaction provides unequivocally proves that some incident is trillions of years old?
What does the time stamp of “trillions of years” really means?
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The idea of date locate puts unnecessary significance on time. The actuality is that the pc is working under the idea that “date locate” needs to be very exact before the incident would blow.
Well that has nothing to do with the unit of time. It has to do with sorting out the inconsistency in the exact detail by narrowing it down farther and more exactly.
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Regardless of the origin or underlying structure of time and space, we are here and now in it’s throws. We may or may not have chosen this existence, but we are in it as demonstrated by these messages. Occurrences do have a beginning middle and end.and related factors happened at certain times. Cause and effect and the why of things are determined by the where and when. This may seem childishly simple, but becomes very important when sorting out inconsistencies and confusions.
The purpose of looking back is to understand. Sometimes 10 or 100 billion years is irrelevant. Sometimes a matter of a few minutes makes all the difference in resolving the riddle or not. Sometimes knowing that an event occurred 23.41 trillion yrs ago in this particular space, run by this group of guys, with these exact rules, and knowing who was there is vital to knowing exactly why you made that decision.
Bottom line; it takes whatever it takes. Knowing exactly what it takes and when to skim over or when to dig deep will come with experience, just as knowing when to stop and do an MSC on the experience to resolve something that is sticking.
It gets easier and more fun as you go along.
Learn to be diligent and lighthearted at the same time. BPC is no longer a problem when the attitude of “I’m glad I touched on that so I’ll know what to keep an eye out for over the next few sessions.” is employed.
Just have a good time and you’ll have no significant problems.
I’m still working on that viewing others time track or the physical universe track thing. More fun.
Mark
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I do not like the idea of selectively restimulating part of the bank in order to handle it. To me one should be continually addressing the existing restimulation of an unwanted condition in here and now.
When one addresses here and now continually as through mindfulness and contemplation, then one is acting like a clear from the get go.
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It seems to me that
TIME = SEQUENCE OF EVENTS
SPACE = LOCATION WITHIN A MATRIX OR INDEX
Yes, we are subject to time and space until we have mindfulness humming at a good clip. 🙂
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Vinaire: Yes, we are subject to time and space until we have mindfulness humming at a good clip. 🙂
Ct: Why “until?”
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Let’s discuss the inconsistency you are looking at.
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You used the word until. Conversely, we will not longer be subject to time and space after we have mindfulness humming at a good clip. Maybe I don’t understand what you mean by “subject to time and space.” Is this some kind of Hubbardianism? haha
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It was a response to Mark, who said:
“Regardless of the origin or underlying structure of time and space, we are here and now in it’s throws. We may or may not have chosen this existence, but we are in it as demonstrated by these messages. Occurrences do have a beginning middle and end.and related factors happened at certain times. Cause and effect and the why of things are determined by the where and when. This may seem childishly simple, but becomes very important when sorting out inconsistencies and confusions.”
This is a discussion about having a time track and dating and locating incidents on this time track to blow them.
My contention is that we do not need the concept of time track and the method of date-locate to restimulate parts of the bank and blow them if we are dynamically and continually addressing with mindfulness what is in restimulation in present time. The natural unstacking of the mind brings to fore what needs to be addressed next.
So, we do not need to establish a time-track, and we do not need to give importance to the contents of the incidents when mindfulness is functioning at a good clip.
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So we will be subject to space time even after Mindfulness is humming along at a good clip?
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Don’t know. But my IDEA is yes, if we want to interact, have something to do. Personally, I’m not quite ready to sit at tone 40 with my ‘eyes’ closed, knowing all, doing nothing. The big lies that got this party started (“In the Beginning” MNR) gave us all this confusion and suffering. It also gave us the richness and beauty of randomity and interaction. My goal, for now, is to understand knowing and not knowing equally well. Recovering my history is my current method of understanding. That may change. I don’t discount anything. I will look at anything squarely in the face.
Mark
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Merry Christmas Mark!
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May the love that was Jesus infuse all with joy and peace.
ARC, especially A,
Mark
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Good toast!
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In my opinion we shall be dealing with the space and time associated with the inconsistencies we are confronted with in the present time only.
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This is an interesting subject to me. It seems to infiltrate all that I am and all that I ever will be.
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Yes, the space and time influencing us, when we are being mindful, is that associated with the inconsistencies we are confronted with in the present time.
The space and time associated with the past track is not there.
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Vin: The space and time associated with the past track is not there.
Chris: It is such a mindfuck to consider that all that we observe is as it used to be. My experience of real time is no more than an abstraction of events as they used to be. I cannot even clearly write this down as what this means to me in terms of an inconsistency.
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Are you finding it useful to break space-time apart and if so, why?
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Let’s discuss the inconsistency you are looking at.
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Space-time at the quanta is one thing, no?
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It has long been established that Space and Time are not absolute but relative. The Theory of Relativity is all about that. I do not understand your question.
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It is not a matter of “looking back”. It is a matter of “what is unresolved that is impinging on me right now”.
The idea of ‘time track’, ‘games’ and ‘opponents’ may be tools devised by Hubbard to resolve the present moment, but it is possible to resolve the present moment in a much cleaner and direct way without these vias.
The ‘exact rules’ of whole track that you are talking about are not vital in my opinion. They are not even necessary.
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To me mindfulness is a continuous activity that occurs naturally unless interfered with. MSC is a conscious activity that is taken up when things become complicated.
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It seems to me that with mindfulness there is no need for sessions with e-meter. All one needs is a little contemplation here and a little contemplation there.
Solo sessions may occur only when one is consciously using MSC. It is the focus on present time that is necessary.
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There is really no need to know the contents of another person’s time track. But, yes, it is important for other people to resolve their own inconsistencies. Mindfulness is a simple technique for that.
We are trying to understand the time track of the physical universe through science. The moment we understand how a particle is formed, we would have a clue to how the universe was formed.
Universe forming could be a harmonic of how clouds are formed in the sky – a precipitation into visibility what was invisible before.
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The purpose of mentioning the instance of ‘going back and viewing another’s time track’ was that there was a confusion there that would not resolve due to lack of data. The additional data resolved the confusion.
I am discovering more solidly with each search that I am a Thetan and I am also Theta. Affinity is the primary key which unlocks the barriers between these two seemingly separate areas. The data was always there but the barriers constructed in order to ‘have a game’ are deeply ingrained. I viewed a few incidents in which I looked around these barriers, cheated in a manner, and lost the game. Not lost AT the game, but lost the game altogether. This is beginning to resolve.
Mark
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That’s wonderful that it is beginning to resolve. 🙂
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How does one view another person’s time track?
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Vinaire: “How does one view another person’s time track?”
Mark: You just look. I know, that’s just a cop out.
Here is what I did.
Over the last several years, I have learned my connection with Theta, life wholeness, oneness, love of all. It was a learning and realization process and then a sudden bang. ARC can be taken much farther than I had realized before. The true roots of ARC display the truth of beingness, individuality and,well, oneness.
Look again at “The beginning” (MNR) with particular attention to the separation process. Look again at “Affinity and auditing and assists” (MNR) with particular attention to “Perfect affinity is zero distance…….etc.” Take another look at “Control”(MNR), especially the part about “A lower form of affinity was established.” This particular concept is especially important. It is the moment that some individuals fully denied their connection with others. When one harms, lowers, suppresses others, he is harming himself, not just metaphorically, but in reality, directly. There was a moment when that was denied, a decision point.
I began loving others in a way I had never done before. It was not artificial, such as putting forth loving feelings as some psychologists have suggested. It was a deep, feel what they feel, be in their shoes, look at life from their point of view, be them love. When one is being a shit or asshole, admire how they can operate with so much confusion and pain bearing down on them. Feel that weight and add your own strength, confront their case until it becomes your own, and then see it for what it is, a part of you.
When you can love David Miscavidge or Stalin as if they were your own newborn child, you will have learned.
You expand and be everything around you. It’s a gradient that you, Vinair, have experienced. Like doing TR-0 and hearing and knowing what is going on in the room. Then it is feeling what is in the room. Then it being the things around you. Things are also an aspect of Theta, simply not as animated as individuals.
During the one particular incident I described, I did not return to the incident, I brought the incident to present time. I relaxed all effort and allowed it to occur. (Thank you Vinaire) I embraced others and played their part of the incident as myself. I knew what they knew, which was actually me all along.
And then I laughed,,,,,,and laughed.
This whole game has become a lot more fun and I would like others have fun with it. I believe Hubbard may have missed this point, but were it not for him and you and several others, I would never have stumbled upon it.
I am now looking at individuals relationship with MEST and bodies. MEST is actually a form of Theta, stuck in continuation, with less active attention. Sort of.
Will get back with you, got some looking to do. By the way, this is a big part of the 2D relationship, but not all. The bliss of near oneness with Theta, or at least a part of it.
I will send copies of those aforementioned write-ups if you would like.
marknr@hushmail.com
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So, it is all visualization on one’s part!
Sent from my iPhone
>
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From L. Kin’s Book 1:
“DMSMH had stunned the world – the medical world in particular – with the proposition that prenatal life was sentient; that there was a thinking and feeling being inside the embryonic body. Amongst auditors this never was a point of discussion as most preclears had no difficulty contacting prenatal incidents and alleviating their psychosomatic problems after “running them out” (auditor jargon). However, when Hubbard discovered in 1951 that some seemingly unresolvable cases were getting swift results as soon as they contacted past life incidents, a storm of arguments for and against it broke loose in the auditor community. ”
It is my opinion that cases were resolving in 1951 not because “past lives” were contacted, but because the preclear was allowed to let the mind unstack itself without the consideration of being right or wrong.
The content of an incident doesn’t really matter. Sometimes the content is very abstract, and the words used to describe it cannot be taken literally. What really matters is looking at what is really there and resolving the confusion. Describing an incident is not really necessary.
So, the whole subject of past lives has dramatic value only and no technical value in fact.
.
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The whole concept of time track, or whole track, is quite superfluous because
(1) Content of the incident doesn’t rally matter because it doesn’t need to be analyzed.
(2) Only thing that matters is bringing to view all data that is relevant to an inconsistency (unwanted condition).
(3) Even “earlier similar” does not matter. What matters is letting the mind freely unstack itself. It will automatically go to the incident necessary to resolve the case, regardless of where in the sequence that incident is.
(4) The key to resolution is understanding and practicing mindfulness.
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Earlier-Similar
Routine 3, and later as a case advances, variants of R3, have been vital in my work and have yielded great success in my work and in auditing others. One thing that was left out was scanning upwards after a so called basic is reached. The next more recent event can then become the new basic and so on. He may have decided that the skill level was to high for most auditors to know when to do this and when not to. It can be arduous on a PC when it’s the wrong time and yield enormous understandings when it’s right. This tech is in 1950s book auditing and on the Clearing course, but I have not seen it elsewhere.
A couple of other vital points..
When a chain is completely as-is’ed and erased, according to R3ra, it is actually a good release point only. All original postulates and confusions made during the time of large, common universes will relate back to very early considerations where there was NO BELIEVED CONFUSION OR INCONSISTENCY AT THAT TIME. The inconsistencies came later and can be tracked back to the forgotten considerations, thereby releasing one from their influence. Take the wins at the time, but do not discard the notes, they will be needed later.
Next, and this is vital tech.
All of us here have a MEST reactive mind. We decided, or were coerced into deciding to use this as a tool for living.BUT THE MECHANICS OF HOW WE USE AND STORE THIS ‘BANK’ ARE DIFFERENT IN VARIOUS ERAS OF OUR EXISTENCE. THE RULES AND MECHANICS OF DIFFERENT UNIVERSES ARE DIFFERENT AND OCCURRENCES MUST BE HANDLED DIFFERENTLY.
Meter reactions are different and disappear altogether before a certain point, unless there are later confusions still tagged onto the earlier misunderstood or incident in question. Before a certain time, the rule of “There must be change or alter-is for MEST existence to continue” simply does not apply. The earliest decisions and considerations and postulates had no confusion or MEST attached to them and simply became ‘who you are’. But once forgotten, and especially when confusions and inconsistencies, counter postulates, were piled on top of them, your ability to change your mind was lost.
These principals are not complex but MUST be well understood to make significant progress much beyond the various release states called Clear.
Vin, you are responsible for showing me the added techniques which enabled me to work this out.
Thank you
Mark
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In my opinion the idea of ‘earlier-similar’ is useful only to the degree that it gets the pc to look at the inconsistency again and again from different angles.
Sorting out TIME is essentially sorting out the SEQUENCE. One is sorting out the relative sequence of events or experiences subjectively. No objective unit of time is required. What “trillion years ago” means to one person does not necessarily have to mean the same thing to another person for a resolution to occur.
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Space seems to the whole matrix. There are contextual locations in that matrix.
Time seems to be the changes in that whole matrix. Some locations are changing faster than other locations. It is a wonderful calculus of life with all kind of slopes in every direction.
This makes everything connected… even the events and occurrences. A track is left behind because of inconsistencies. A total picture shall require the sorting out of all inconsistencies in all possible directions.
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In my opinion the success of KHTK is measured by the degree to which a person is able to apply it to oneself. A KHTK guide may be necessary in the beginning when a person is learning to apply mindfulness to oneself. But once mindfulness is mastered, no KHTK guide is necessary.
What may be necessary then is to have others to have a mindful discussion with. Ha ha!
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The most productive mindful discussion one may have is with the masters of a subject through the books they have written. This is accomplished by using MSC, especially the technique where one is summarizing each paragraph of what an author has written and commenting on it as one goes along. That technique acts like a mindful discussion with the author.
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Routine 3 (earlier similar) is like word clearing. It is viewing all the contents by following the word chains.
Scanning upwards after the basic is reached is like subject clearing. It is cleaning up the inconsistencies among all the contents now revealed.
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Auditing is arduous for the pc only when arbitrary decision are being made for him by the auditor in how the case should be run.
The most natural direction to run the case comes from natural unstacking or unwinding of the mind. In Scientology, this is allowed only on TR0 and, to some degree, on word clearing. That is why these two are the most powerful processes.
KHTK combines TR0 and word clearing through mindfulness in the technique of MSC. I find it to be very powerful.
There is no higher skill level needed to do MSC. It clears up fixations, engrams, secondaries, service facs, GPMs, etc., quite naturally in its wake. Mind naturally knows the next inconsistency to resolve at any moment. It is a beautiful calculus of following the curve at the right gradient at any moment.
An auditor and C/S can only ‘program’ a case to run on a very crude and broad basis. Fine tune running of a case requires solo sessions. Mindfulness is running a case solo on a continuous basis. MSC is used to sort out complications in solo sessionss.
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I find MSC to be much more safer and powerful than the Scientology technique of Listing and Nulling.
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The technique of Listing & Nulling is extremely evaluative and dangerous. It is dangerous to the order of ‘betrayal after trust’.
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Early 1950’s dianetics was a patchwork of guessing based on Freudian conjectures, and which utilized the principles of A=A=A and earlier similar. It easily reached the low hanging fruits but nothing more.
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Mark: “When a chain is completely as-is’ed and erased, according to R3ra, it is actually a good release point only. All original postulates and confusions made during the time of large, common universes will relate back to very early considerations where there was NO BELIEVED CONFUSION OR INCONSISTENCY AT THAT TIME. The inconsistencies came later and can be tracked back to the forgotten considerations, thereby releasing one from their influence. Take the wins at the time, but do not discard the notes, they will be needed later.”
Any erasure is relative only. Hubbard’s idea of Clear is a major release only. There is no absolute clearing. An inconsistency is there whenever something does not make sense.
There is no need to keep any notes. What needs to be sorted out is always there.
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Mark: “Next, and this is vital tech.
All of us here have a MEST reactive mind. We decided, or were coerced into deciding to use this as a tool for living.BUT THE MECHANICS OF HOW WE USE AND STORE THIS ‘BANK’ ARE DIFFERENT IN VARIOUS ERAS OF OUR EXISTENCE. THE RULES AND MECHANICS OF DIFFERENT UNIVERSES ARE DIFFERENT AND OCCURRENCES MUST BE HANDLED DIFFERENTLY.”
To me, the above is too complex. I find simplicity in the concepts of mindfulness and resolving inconsistencies through contemplation.
The reactive mind is an appearance only.
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From Vinaire:
“To me, the above is too complex. I find simplicity in the concepts of mindfulness and resolving inconsistencies through contemplation.”
Mark.
I have built up a very complex relationship with MEST over a long period of time. To actively avoid confronting the complexity is to be forever enslaved by it. What one is not hatted in, one will be adversely affected by. This is true for me. To be truly free of the foibles of this universe, one must master it. I’m in it for the long haul.
Forget about the quantity of effort required. Just continue to learn, understand, and resolve everything. It will take a little while but have fun with it. That takes away the counter effort.
Mark.
PS: Confront and understand the complexities and the simplicities are exposed. Discover the simplicities and the complexities dissolve. Attack from both directions.
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From Vinaire:
“The reactive mind is an appearance only.”
Mark:
The reactive MEST Bank, a relatively small portion of a persons case which is operating unseen by the individual, exists in fact. When one discovers why he began using it as a tool, your statement becomes true.
Mine was suggested to me by a so called friend as a so called favor. It was touted as a ‘machine’ to do things and solve problems for me and a tool to ‘watch my back’ when I wasn’t paying attention. It happened shortly after a moment of overwhelm and was fun…..at first.
I “knew” this from what I had read and learned, but that was nothing compared to seeing it for myself. Current so called ‘Clear’ is reaching an understanding. OT is actually seeing it.
There is much more to this than is currently covered in Scientology.
For instance, the accomplishment of building the mechanics of the MEST bank causes one to refuse to let go of it. “It’s mine, I built it.” I had lots of wins using it. Later, it was reinforced and enforced with implants. Tricked into agreement at first, punished into agreement later.
My experience.
Mark
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Mark: “Meter reactions are different and disappear altogether before a certain point, unless there are later confusions still tagged onto the earlier misunderstood or incident in question. Before a certain time, the rule of “There must be change or alter-is for MEST existence to continue” simply does not apply. The earliest decisions and considerations and postulates had no confusion or MEST attached to them and simply became ‘who you are’. But once forgotten, and especially when confusions and inconsistencies, counter postulates, were piled on top of them, your ability to change your mind was lost.”
I find the use of E-meter to be superfluous. It simply creates a dependency. An inconsistency is always visible because the attention is always attached to it. All it requires is training on letting the mind unstack itself.
It is a matter of simply seeing what is there. 🙂
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The electro-psychometer.
An ohm meter that can be adjusted to register a narrow change in resistance. Say, from 3521.4 ohms to 3521.9 ohms. The theory being that the spirit impresses mental mass onto the body, thereby changing its resistance. This mass being of a different form than known atomic particles yet physical universe mass still. This is, of course, a great oversimplification, as is “How the E-meter Works” according to LRH.
If the theory is true, then it would extend to all masses and energies affected or produced or discarded by the spirit. If this mass/energy exists, then no machine or method has been devised to detect it directly. (I hooked up the test resistor to a meter, looked at and admired the ingenuity of it’s construction, admired the quality of it’s materials, ‘felt’ the hands of the assemblers and loved and became this part. There were fluctuations on the dial.)
Unneeded distraction, dependency.
Adjust the leads or look at the dial for reactions and part of one’s attention is off of yourself. But how much? How quickly can one’s attention be fully returned to the actual task at hand? This is individual to the person and is an acquired skill. A skill that can be acquired.
One can audit with a meter, looking for reads to find something, and F/Ns when he is done. He can feel lost without it. Some meter procedures can be arduous, and some types of considerations do not read on a meter. Some reads have to be produced by the auditor with forceful techniques when the subject matter is predetermined by the process.
There are problems.
But there is also usefulness. There are common phenomenon which have been documented over many thousands of persons over millions of hours of use. These phenomenon have been used to find and assist one in relieving distress, inconsistency, in many individuals. The reliability of success is determined by the skill and knowledge of the auditor and PC/OT whether audited or solo. It never reaches 100%. There are very few who are willing and able to put forth the effort to reach a point where significant gain can be made using mindfulness, KHTK, and MSC alone. Use of a meter, along with other tools, can find and help alleviate unwanted conditions quickly, giving the individual wins and increased ability to find further inconsistencies.
It can assist in getting one up to the point where a meter is no longer needed or can easily know when to and when not to use it. To depend completely on a meter is of course foolish. To ignore it as a tool is an error. To discount it’s usefulness is an indicator of an unseen inconsistency.
Semi structured mindful unstacking of inconsistencies can relieve considerable confusions. Meter guided searching can produce additional gain in many areas. Used together, as I have found, can locate and guide one through additional areas of case. I hope I am not the only one who has learned to have/not have a meter. The willingness to look or not look at the needle is key.
There will be many more methods of self improvement I will use in the future. You have given me some, there will be more. I will not discount them.
Have a lovely Christmas vacation. Ignore the computer for awhile.
Mark
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L. Kin says in support of Hubbard:
“Naturally, such time spans go back to periods before there were bodies or even the physical universe itself. Yet even before there was physical matter, energy, space or time there was the spirit, i.e. you and me. What exactly this means is covered in the next sections.”
It is inconsistent to think that spirit (Theta) was there before MEST. Both Theta and MEST occur together, and not independently of each other. Thinking that Theta and MEST are separate and independent from each other at basic level is the most fundamental inconsistency in Hubbard’s Scientology.
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From L. Kin: “The E-meter is… a simple Wheatstone bridge which measures the resistance of the body as influenced by the electric field around it… The auditor, by asking the pc to go deeper into reading areas, will get straighter and faster to the basic incident than by observation of the pc’s skin color, eye brightness, emotional tone… The validity of needle reads is confirmed by the pc changing to the better, i.e. realizing something about the connectedness between past incidents and his present condition, brightening up and recovering physically and emotionally.”
This E-meter is a crude method and not precise at all. It may work for obvious reactions, but not for reactions that cannot be differentiated from analytical thought influencing the E-meter.
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The truth is that E-meter reacts to both reactive and analytical thought. It has limited usefulness. Beyond a certain point it leads to endless ‘auditing’ as on OT levels. There it may lead to conditioning and not to sorting out unwanted conditions.
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Have yourself a wonderful Christmas with friends and family. I wish you all the best during and after this time of love and forgiveness. May it last all year.
ARC, Mark
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From L.Kin: “Once it was established that man is more than a combination of his body and his social security card, there was a need to find the right term for the phenomenon. “Man” was no good as it referred too much to the physical aspect. “Soul” didn’t serve as in the Christian tradition man “had” a soul; it wasn’t customary to say that man was a soul or to wonder who and where the owner of the soul was. What to do?
A year earlier, in 1951, Hubbard had given a lot of thought to the philosophical foundations of dianetics. The result of his efforts were “The Axioms of Dianetics”, numbering 194. He proposed a theory which – quite in opposition to physics – said that the source of life is comparable to pure thought, that all physical or psychic phenomena are derived from thought, that life derives from thought and not matter. This “life force” he termed theta, simply because the “th” in the word “thought” has its counterpart in the Greek letter “th”, pronounced “theta”.
He comes to the simple statement: ‘A life organism is composed of matter and energy in space and time, animated by theta” (Dn Axiom 11; [1]). This sentence is the cornerstone of Hubbard’s philosophical edifice which concerns the interaction between matter, energy, space and time (mest) and theta. All struggles of man in his attempt to survive are interpreted with reference to it. (His book, “Science of Survival”, written 1951, is fully devoted to this theme [16].)”
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It is erroneous to think in terms of “source” of life. That leads to speculation. It is more accurate to simply look at what is there.
Saying that “theta” is the source of life and that it animates the physical organism is entirely speculative. It does not lead to any new understanding. It is just a belief.
But saying that man has both physical and spiritual attributes that exist side by side is scientifically accurate because it can be observed.
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L. Kin says:
“Going back to “History of Man” and the problem of how to call “it” that has existed through the millennia and is neither man nor soul and maybe both together: Hubbard’s solution was to call it “theta being” or simply thetan. To give an example: the preclear William Thompson (51 years old, engineer, married, two children, 178 cm tall, 81 kg weight) receives an auditing session. When he recalls an incident of falling off his bicycle at the age of five, he is referring to the same William Thompson he is now, although then (age 5) his physical and social description was entirely different. When he recalls in some other session how he was hanged by the neck for stealing horses in the year 1535, he is still referring to the same person he is now, with the difference that the body he owned then doesn’t exist any more and that then he wasn’t called William Thompson but Pepe Gonzalez and it all happened during the Mexican conquista. But it’s his incident, it happened on his timetrack. He knows it to be so. This person, this spiritual entity of perennial duration which doesn’t live or die but takes bodies (which live and die) in order to play his games and fulfill what he made his mind up to do, is called “thetan”.”
.
(1) Both physical and spiritual aspects, which make up a life organism, seems to have existed since millennia. There is no reason to think that these two aspects have ever existed independent of each other.
(2) The preclear William Thompson is an identity. At age 5, this identity was different. There is no underlying self, which was the same then as it is now. Self is not something permanent.
(3) Again it is an assumption that a recall of the incident of 1535 means it was the same person then as the person now. Identity and individuality depend on both spiritual and physical aspects of a person. There is no element underlying identity and individuality, which ever remains permanent.
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There is no thetan that remains permanent at any two points on the time track. So, any talk about a thetan having a time track is superfluous.
When we talk about having a childhood, birth etc., we are talking about a sequence of memories attached to our present identity, individuality or self. This self is sort of an abstract label under which these memories are collected. The make-up of self is changing from moment to moment. Nothing is permanent about it.
Getting attached to self is like getting attached to a bunch of impressions, and to atoms and molecules that keep shifting with time.
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