Hinduism allows its scriptures to be questioned.
Buddha encouraged his disciples to question his teachings.
Knowledge grows when it is questioned and discussed. For inconsistencies are then discovered and eliminated.
Why does Scientology prohibit its followers to question and discuss its knowledge?
If Scientology must grow it should allow its theories to be examined, questioned, challenged and discussed by its followers.
The other option would be for Scientology to go the way of the Catholic Church – moving lifelessly only because of past momentum.
.
Comments
I am regarding life not as a static but as The Process of Space-Time.
That is my summation too.
Hi guys… question: Since space and time but mostly time is a made up consideration, a concepts so keeping it on mind you believe that ” life” =all the concepts=thought, agreements are static to?
I see space and time as aspects of motion.
MOTION => SPACE + TIME
In my model, space and time do not exist by themselves. They exist only as aspects of motion.
.
And vice-versa.
Space what space is called is energy in the thin-invisible form Now when one places heavier energy pieces=solid objects into that that space distance from each other than one assume that there is space between those objects.
Now someone invented the CLOCK =the time machine which in fact not measures the ”time’ actually the clock do nothing at all by it self and never have and never will in the future.
The Clock is a machine and I do not need to explain to you how it works.
Objects move in the invisible energy field different speed… that speed depends on the size of the objects and the different motions =movements of that invisible energy field in which those objects float or placed-stacked up… whatever.
One can ”TIME” those movements an clock machine: and come to the conclusion just how much those hands moved on the face of the clock and say
”from A to B that object has taken to move 1 HOUR” That hour means simply that the hand=indicator arm of the clock has moved from one number to the next number. THAT MOVEMENT IS CALLED TIME HAS PASSED!
There is no Time it self as a object, Time, having Time is a assumption,
That goes for space too, While one is in the Physical U. One will not SEE -FEEL emptiness-static- void. Those concepts are made up in order to describe different state of energy masses.
🙂 Now if you already have the same viewpoints than I just wasted ”time” writing this.. By that I mean: while I was writing objects moved within objects.:)
The above reality has come from auditing-experiences of the P.U. in the form of cognitions.
I have not studied anything about the science of space =matter energy. I had only 10 years of schooling and that include 2 years of pastry baking; I have waitressed and cleaned houses for making the living. and been a house wife. I do not need to question if auditing works since I know from experience that it do it will give the promised END P.. if one applies the TECH long enough by that I mean covers every stage of beliefs-considerations-form of thoughts of selfs and others and all the agreements -the reasons why those existing in the first place.
I my reality conclusions are not the real knowledge which base is a first hand experience.
Conclusion of ideas comes from comparison of other guessing-assuming ideas and assuming that it s right because it ”feels good” have the right sounding because after all others have said that too.. so it must be true than.
In Auditing one do KNOW that one do not assume what happens but one experiences those incidents.
I Know that lots of bad auditing outcome has brought on lots of bad experiences for many, but I only can sujest-recomend that Get some from a very reputable auditor and finally find out how real those incidents are what others talking about.
Tell me what one could lose by having sessions? Nothing, but gaining one more experience and having those are the links which is one calls life here.
Just because Having few bad experiences in ones ”life” do not give reason not to continue having more. Example… I am sure not all meals you have eaten in the course of your life time was culinary delight.. yet you had eaten again and again.. oh.. you say that is not the same… but it is… just different experience… by now you know that all experiences have equal value. 🙂
So Dear.. get a first hand experience with a good auditor and explore the universe which you have created but 99.999999% of that creation has been forgotten
Also do keep in in mind that immediate judgement of anything is filtered down… your words: seen through many filters, therefore the true knowledge of anything can not be known.
But how you come to the conclusion when un-stacking that subject that there are no more layers… no more filters in existence which occludes the true experience?
I understand you are taking apart things in order to see it” clearly” and that process you call.. un-stacking, I call it -confront .
So far you have not mentioned that how you know there is no more filters.. Please tell, how you can be sure of that and what is the indicator you experience while you have examined the ”last filter”
As long as there are inconsistencies there is something to be resolved, and better clarity to be attained. I have no way of knowing when all inconsistencies will be gone because absolutes are unattainable.
.
Right you are, it is impossible to run out of inconsistencies when one is in communication with any other person, since others pictures-reality do not belong to self therefore one always can find that something is wrong, not OK, it is a lie, not correct, because one always compare what others are saying to ones beliefs and judges from the self’s believe viewpoints. It is impossible to see arrive to the same reality without having agreement. By the time one agrees to something there are many layers of filters one sees through.. so where is the truth in that, in having agreement?
There is no absolute truth.
.
MARK…. fear is a item which is the outcome of ”I might lose something” which has values.. One has to erase all that one holds ” valuable”. fear will vanish..
Interesting subject “value” and of course one has to confront the opposite side of value which is ”worthless”. But each of the above considerations have many different meanings=similar words and those concepts to has to be confronted.
I was not looking for ”fear” when It has vanished for me but for weeks on end I was looking at values what are the reasons they have because valuable to me.
Example: having a body, life, roof over my head, friends, car, money, voice to speak with, eye sight, hundreds and hundreds of other things I have confronted which I held valuable.
I also looked at what others thought was valuable for them.. Do you know even ”sickness” has value?? in FACT IT IS A HIGHLY PRICED commodity!
LIFE : having one is very valuable… cognitions will pour from auditing those items. Of course, it has a bit more to what I did but I have given the general Idea how I have eliminated FEAR from my universe.
Eliz:
I have not looked into fear as an individual subject. There seem to be several other areas attached to fear but it seems to resolve as the attached area is resolved. Fear of body pain for self and others faded from importance with running engram chains in this universe. Fear of loss of possessions is a broad area which is slowly resolving. Fear of loss of ARC which I consider valuable seems to span my entire existence but has lost some of the charge it had. Fear of being found out, exposed after hiding, discovered for what you are, what one has done, crosses many other emotions. When one starts taking real responsibility for whole track, it must be done carefully to prevent caving in. Seeing a picture of what used to be you 2200 years ago, killing a few people can be interesting, but when you know that it was really YOU that raped and killed and maimed thousands, it is different. Skilled assistance is sometimes required to push through to a full EP on many things. Coming up to present time, knowing that you are a far better being than when you started the session is vital.
I consider your input valuable. Hope some of my data is worthwhile to some others.
Thanks
Mark
ONE OF THE REASON THE TRACK EXISTS because it has great value.. value is having-ness, a treasured item.. also they are anchors. The memory it self is a HAVING-ness it exist because it has value- the information it contains is a must to survive—hehehe– that is a belief which one of the largest lies we have talked our-self into. I erased all values.. there is none left and with that the needs and the wants the yearnings, the must have, the wishing, the desires were gone too.
Mark… I don’t know if you have read it in my blog but to me the Universe is existed because I had ARCB’s ..something existing because there is no reality and if there is no reality than there is no understanding and because of those two in place how could one love something and have open communication? People have nothing more than those ARCB’x and those made their Universe a solid place.
In my opinion space and energy are two different concepts. They should not be confused with each other. They may be shown as related to each other in a systematic way. But they should not be presented as the same thing.
Clear definitions are nececessary to communicate what we mean clearly. Please see
TRAINING: Looking at Knowledge
.
Thank you Vinaire.. Humans with eyes don’t see what is in space and space is different energy which I can not be seen with the eyes… My reality.
I write from experience…
If people start using their own definitions for words, precise communication is going to be impossible.
We have to use the same language to understand each other.
.
Communication is the most important activity. It is through communication that we can help each other.
.
Here is where I need to leave off from future commenting in your blog because I have my reality and I need to express what I know the way I know it..
I am a individual and beside that I do not have the same command of the English L as you AND THE TOP OF THAT which you don’t seem to understand it is a impassible task to achieve for every one to have the same reality on the same words.. Our universes are very differently created and you will never know what ”black cat” looks to me and I will never know how you would be ”seeing” the same cat. Just because we would describe the same cat how it looks we will never know the other persons reality.
Thank you for the invite , have fun.
Do you have an ARC break?
Sorry, I couldn’t help asking that. I had no intention to invalidate you. We communicate as best as we can. 🙂
.
Yes, we have a reality difference and the knowledge of Wikisis a compiled knowledge by very knowledgeable person.. the best on this planet and I think they are fantastic bunch or people. But not likely any of them had any auditing and I had nothing else beside auditing As you read I had minimal amount of education and my realty what I know ALL OF IT IS COGNITIONS… PURE UNDILUTED UNALTERED KNOWLEDGE WHICH HAS NOT BEEN FILTERED THROUGH THOUSANDS OF FILTERS. Vin darling you old bean this is it for me… take me as I am but please do understand there is no more to Elizabeth.. all filters are erased.
I do not agree with Hubbard that if two realities are different then there cannot be in communication.
If two realities are different, such as, the Christian ideology and Buddhist wisdom, then the fact is that we are looking at inconsistencies in a big pool of knowledge.
One can look at those inconsistencies and discuss them a little at a time to avoid any overwhelm.
.
I believe that the toughest inconsistencies can be discussed if people apply the following policy:
Discussions and what needs to be avoided
.
I do not think that I have created this universe. I am in no league with God.
.
HEHEHE.. what you see, what you feel, what you know is your creation! and I am not much for fallowing others foot steps.. I been walking on my own for a long time! I have no idea by now how I could possibly to be any help with my comments… you tell me.. that might help out.
It is perfectly ok with me for you to walk in your own footsteps. I can have other realities on my blog. I have no problem with it as long as people follow the Discussion policy.
Discussions and what needs to be avoided
I had tough time on Geir’s blog because he did not follow the discussion policy.
.
I too had been guilty of the same… but I have to admit I had fun getting it and giving it.. but after that was no longer fun since I have seen I stepped on toooo many toes.. I am not making excuses here and I know you are not asking for it.. it was part of the game.
Yes. You are right that it was a different game on Geir’s blog. Here, on this blog, the game is that we all are on the same side, and on the other side are puzzles, not knows and ignorance that we are trying to resolve together.
Self or selves are not in the picture unless they become puzzles themselves.
.
Sounds good to me… good game…
I am going to see if “mindful wordclearing” as laid in the following process can be made standard KHTK approach.
PROCESS: The Intention to Harm
In fact, I am going to guide a good friend of mine through this process this Thanksgiving weekend to see if there is an Implant to Harm, which can be comfortably addressed.
.
I have found what you call mindfulness and I have finally understand what you want others to accomplish with the processes. Yes, I can see great gains to be had. This process puts one into the PRESENT TIME in the NOW.
Just look at things as they are by eliminating any other addition = assumptions -considerations=thoughts : their meanings, just be there and do nothing. When that is achieved one can see what truly is front of the person. It means the person is now totally separated from the “”bank” in other words key=out of it.
IN Scientology I have taken a short course it title was ”Observing the obvious.”‘
SEE what is there and no more.
Meditation if it is done will achieve the same:pushes away the aberration and allows one to be in the present time: and experience nothing more than what is there what one experiences in that moment.
Auditing do the same with one big difference it eliminates all the confusing layers once and for all NOT JUST TEMPERARLY but for ever and there will not be a key-in ever again.. That is what I have been doing for the past 40 years and I have achieved to be in the NOW experience without filters and there is no key-in.
I think you got it. Mindfulness is a wonderful gradient.
.
gradient to what?
To understanding.
You see things as they are. Then you see relationships among things as they are.
. V… I been writing about the topic of ” NOW”” what IS for years. In the NOW… in the fraction of the moment there is nothing… but nothing… not even a ”thought” since a thought not part of the NOW. it is already a adition:a filter to the moment.
When one is in the NOW at all times: these of course only terms to describe what is since the NOW can not be described.” When one is in the NOW one do not even have a experience because ”experiences” are already outside or the NOW.. EXperiences a continuum — extention of energy flow and that is already not in the NOW but belongs into the P.U. since it can be measured, and most of all it is a created experience and that is already outside of NOW..
That sounds fine to me.
Energy = verb.
Mass = noun.
Motion = space and time.
motion is not time.. cant be..
Motion is space and time.
Space and time are aspects of motion.
You are questioning scientology processes, well, I have used the auditing technology of LRH’s creation and I am, what I have achieved in 40 years is the very proof that the auditing TECH. works if it is applied.
But few hundred hours or even few thousand of hours will not erase all the accumulated beliefs one has stored.
What you read in the blogs of ex-scientologists is that the TECH do not work etc… etc.. It works but there is much more work needed that those few thousands of hours spent confronting in session. That amount of session hardly scratches the surface what is sitting there, stored away.
We need to isolate what excactly works.
Workablility also depends on how long it takes to work.
Some appraches can work much faster than others.
Some may say “how can that person still be such an SOB after running a hundred chains and implants about harmful intentions.” Well, there are thousands left unaddressed. A good metaphor may be that when one puts ointment on a hangnail and it heals up, one still has the gout, indigestion, a headache and maybe even cancer. Chemotherapy still doesn’t cure the hangnail. A guy may realize why he screams at his children and is freed from that, but he may still steal from work and get drunk every night.
The quantity of case to handle is tremendous. The number of decisions you have made and forgotten defies arithmetic.
One may be using (arbitrarily) 1% of his ability. Scn. may be able to get you up to 2 or 3% of your potential. A tremendous improvement. But that still leaves you 97% a..hole.
It will be a long haul. I believe well worth the effort. As Ron once said, ‘it took half an eternity to get in the shape you’re in.’ (approx) Think that’s a long time, look ahead, now there’s quantity. I have time and nothing better to do.
Mindfulness teaches me that when I see someone steal some money, I don’t say to myself “He’s no good, he’s a piece of crap, he’s worthless”, or even “he’s a thief”. I say to myself, “he stole some money”, Pure present time observation. I may later evaluate occurrences and make conclusions, but that is later. See what you see while you’re seeing it. Obnosis. Being in present time.
Mindfulness.
Mark
Mark; I say to my self ” “he stole some money”. Right… you see that but you have judged all ready that he has stolen that money!. In the NOW one would see = movements of energy but not judging that action…when judging is done it is done already through existing filters.
Judgment is relative. A person, who is not aware of his filters, judges without knowing it. But when becomes aware of the filter he also becomes aware of being judgmental and ceases to use that filter. But he still may have other filters judging for him and he may not be aware of them.
So, how does that become rid of one’s filters, Elizabeth?
.
Mark… judgement is valuing something.. measuring coming to conclusion if it is good or bad… how self will be effected by that item.. Conclusions are coming from comparison of similar… and that is still assumption.. seeing through many filters.
Yes one must confront take of many layers of filters in order experience the pure-ness the moment of Now. and one do judges while one is on the Path. but cognitions having it.. contains no judgement. Congnitions-realizations are the pure form of knowledge which do not contain any MEST related thoughts-considerations and agreement with others.
How does one get rid of filters that judge?
.
by removing few million filters=beliefs which holds the person …keeps that person looking through his own beliefs. Long as one has “”belief”” that person Judges from that viewpoint.
But how do you remove just one filter? What procedure do you employ?
.
Simply looking at the item till I realise its meaning. but never ever have found that item has originated here, but earlier and earlier again. Like a chain.. one looks at one link examine it what is without any addition-judgement-assumption when that is done the next chain link will be examined the same way.. than the next…. etc.. etc.. with each examination one removes a filter how the self has seen that item till now… and on the end when all the filters are removed [chain links] than one has a realization ”why” it was created in the first place!! and that realization one removed many filters and one gained a pure form –undiluted knowledge awareness about self-universe- and other beings too.
Thank you. That is powerful.
.
V. dear friend.. the problem was that you did not gotten a good auditor while in the church.
You see, many of the auditors don’t let the person do what I written above. I was very lucky, my first auditing was outside of the church but of course he was a member.. He audited me on the basic assist, Life R. you see, I also had to learn all the words, my English was not that good those days and he was there teaching, helping with the demos etc. Than he sent me to the Mission to take the Communication Course.
BUT!!!! I already went back experienced past life incidents because he pushed me to go earlier similar made me confront every link of the chain and he did not let the session ends till I had VGI’s and cognitions!! He was a fantastic person and ethical auditor!
You see, this is the reason I recommend auditing because it is a adventure..oh yes in some session one has difficult time to face that filter and let it go but no matter how hard any session was the cognition made up for everything.
At first sessions tend to be heavy but later when one realises that nothing but nothing can hurt one, that there are no monster to get you than one really starts to love those sessions. Each one brings new adventure, one recognises figures from the past.. friends and enemies… one faces battles, and dies in those wonderful battles, one finds lost loves, hidden secrets, and knowledge pours in.. pure undiluted knowledge without filters..
One no longer looks for answers outside because one realises that the only answer one needs is that self already has and in session one can find those.
Simple things, like why that dark cloud up there is so formidable looking.. ?? you ask the cloud and you get on answer.. Very simple. One can open up ones own universe simply asking the self and the answer will come.. Of course this is how the solo auditor works. One need to take few courses to have that skill.
When I said millions of filters are removed in fact more than that… much more…
Eliz: “V. dear friend.. the problem was that you did not gotten a good auditor while in the church.”
Vin: This I call being judgmental. Sorry! but this is the kind of thing you yourself object to.
.
Eliz: “You see, many of the auditors don’t let the person do what I written above.”
Vin: Is this piece of TECH missing in Scientology then? Why is this inconsistency so widespread?
.
right you are it is judgmental .. so is all of my writing -communication and every other persons on this planet. When I say ”dear friend” that to is born out of judgement… so is we are having a good day or bad day.. What is called ”judgmental is the type of incoming communication which we do not like, we don’t feel comfortable with in other word the takes away-lessens our belief, makes us feel smaller etc. Now the ”dear friend”’ or you are looking well, you are brilliant -smart ” counts as a compliment and it is desired-wanted-needed because why? but in the long run they are born out of judgement. Yes, I did not like those remarks my self but in the last few years they were the very reason I was posting in blogs to get those evaluations because I was looking for different viewpoints ”stimulations’ ‘ or as you call something to take apart -look at closely. Those comments were like being bull-baited and had removed immense amount of filters because of them. Those evaluations-judgements are the pointers.
Eliz, thanks for descrbing in detail what you do in auditing. Do you apply the following points of mindfulness?
1. Observe without expecting anything, or attempting to get an answer.
2. Observe things as they really are, not as they seem to be.
3. If something is missing do not imagine something else in its place.
4. If something does not make sense then do not explain it away.
5. Use physical senses as well as mental sense to observe.
6. Let the mind un-stack itself.
7. Experience fully what is there.
8. Do not suppress anything.
9. Associate data freely.
10. Do not get hung up on name and form.
11. Contemplate thoughtfully.
12. Let it all be effortless.
.
Totally!!!!!! IF IT WOULD BE ANY OTHER WAY AUDITING WOULD NOT WORK!!!! IN session one seats and doing nothing but confront experience for the very first time one sees that experience what REALLY IS WITHOUT ANY FILTERS!!!! Without any lies, additions.. one sees the bare act what that creation was made for!! For the first time see it in the light of truth. and that is as-ising… the lies don’t hold it there any longer don’t make it more or less what really is. Yes.. in that moment when one finally sees that incident as it was meant to be it is erased.
V….. when one is confronting one do not hold up a list and check it down point by point if it is done right. Confronting is.. being there and face it as is.. and I truly believe that those who haven’t a clue what is auditing about than they are the last persons on Earth who should be questioning if Scientology works because Scientology principals are based on its auditing technology. Oh there is lots of garbage also mixed in but one should be able discard the unworkable-not needed and get on using what it work.
If somebody does not have a clue what auditing or mindfulness is all about, then I feel that if they can only understand it then what a wonderful tool they will have to improve themselves. So, I am always in favor of explaining what auditing/mindfulness is whenever the opportunity arises.
Mindfulness requires very little training. It is a matter of developing a discipline. Once one has developed that discipline, one can run the whole Scientology Bridge by oneself. I recently developed the following process from L-11 process of Scientology.
PROCESS: The Intention to Harm
My first application of it on Chris produced a very good result in a simple, easy going, one-hour session today. Chris can now continue with this process on his own to get more out of it.
.
Are you not judging when you feel offended?
.
Mark.. my sister Ava is full OT 7 we did all out OT levels at ST Hill in 76. Since than she never received or have done solo auditing. But over all these years she has judged me and told me over and over that I must have some huge issues, huge bank, really aberrated, being in bad shape, not doing well, have lots of problems, insecure, low tone… etc etc etc.. if I would just once listen to her judgement of me and stopped auditing where I would be now?
Others opinions do not matter but they cause great re-stimulations and those are the material one handles in session. What others do to me is what I have done to others and that is the only reason one KNOWS that what ever that is good or bad..
I had huge cognitions because I have confronted what other said or done to me.. Good thing to be judged being put down, being told that one is nothing. a low life a aberrated SOB… great material.. I been fishing for those for years ever since I have realised their value.. the value is a cognition. 🙂
You see my sister was right I did have all those things she said.. HEHEHE.. but she can only know what I have from judging from the same mass she is in. 🙂
Hello Eliz:
Back in 84-85, My self and a few others had a chat with (officially) Solo NOTs completion #2 in Atlanta. He was a cabinet maker, I don’t remember his name. During the conversation, someone asked if he wanted to do any ‘L’ rundowns. He said “NO, there’s nothing left, it’s all gone, nothing there to go over, handle.”
At the time I had a total of 3 or 4 hrs of formal auditing and maybe 10 hours of self analysis. I had been reading LRH for over 15 yrs and I think I had a pretty good concept of the principals of Scn. I immediately recognized this as a very foolish statement. With what I know now, I see that was a VERY foolish statement.
All the processes beyond Science of Survival, such as those described in Handbook for PCs, History of Man, for example, had been pushed beyond Solo NOTs due to the believed Body Thetan problem and a few particular implants. Thought, Emotion and Effort aren’t even addressed in any quantity until OT-8. He did say that he had signed up for OT-8 prior to it’s release, I’ll give him that. Boy did he have a surprise in store. Hope he didn’t cave in after coming off his high.
The point I’m trying to make is one that I made earlier about the quantity of stuff to handle. Ron made a very true statement, that “All postulates are aberative.” EVERY DECISION that you made and then forgot lowers your ability to think clearly, accurately, and rationally. EVERY time you made up your mind on something, it locked you in to a particular line of thinking, with little or no ability to change it. Even when one fully erases a chain of engrams, in actuality, it is a temporary release, waiting to be restimulated when related lines of thought are brought up. Even when one reaches a very basic understanding of a principal that reveals a bit of truth, he must scan over a few hundred related incidents to fully clear up all the related confusions.
Don’t feel too bad. Once one gains the ability to easily see his past, the need for it lessens and lessens. As one gains the ability to change his mind, in present time, it gets much easier and faster. But still, one must think long term. What are you going to be doing 1000 yrs from now. Would 1 or 2 hundred yrs of honest effort have been worth it? I think so. My life is much much better for the work I have done. Life is really fun and I’m making it better for myself and those around me.
Several sciences of the spirit besides Scn. have info that is helpful in gaining wisdom and happiness. But one must at least get up to the point where one can accurately recognize, for the most part, what is true and what is not. The inability to accept data in a mindful manner is an aberration. Most of us have learned that from Vin. and other sources, and gone on to observe it for ourselves. But conversely, the inability to recognize truth, to be a dilettante, is equally aberrated. The ability to recognize wisdom will come with increased wisdom.
My final point is that life can be much better but the single greatest prerequisite is effort. On the other hand, the effort itself gets more and more fun.
The adventure awaits.
Mark
Mark… “”Don’t feel bad.”” care to tell me the reason you have written that? Is it there because you are feeling bad about something or you have written it indicating that I feel bad about something. Somehow I miss the point of your last post outside of what LRH has said. I got that clearly.
Eliz:
Sometimes I don’t explain myself fully. I meant (almost in jest) don’t feel bad about the quantity of things to cover and the amount of time it will require. It’s just a drop in the barrel compared to your past and not even that compared to your future. And it gets more fun as you go along.
Eliz:
Is your sister Ava still happy, able and healthy?
Mark
yes.. to all, she has advanced over the years.. doing fantastic.
Eliz:
I am very glad that you two have been spared many of the travails that have befallen many who have done the ‘new’ OT levels later in the church. It seems that the enforced SEC checks and OT preps said to be done for monetary gain for the church have screwed a lot of people up.
Mark
I believed that.. yes the power of the money corrupted.
As I have mentioned the TECH works and you ignore that statement I made..
I have no idea what you mean by “TECH works”. What TECH are you talking about?
LRH’s auditing TECH.
There is lot of TECH under that heading. So, I am not sure what specifically you are talking about.
.
grammar is not my item. I have no clue about the sentences how they have to be put in order to be perfect.. most of all nouns or verbs what they are beyond my need to understand. They do not belong in the NOW.
Noun = names.
Verb = activities.
🙂 thanks.. Don’t make any difference what so ever to me, they both are given labels