Evolution from Spirit to Self

spiritself

From Wikipedia:

Spirit

The English word spirit comes from the Latin spiritus, meaning “breath”, but also “spirit, soul, courage, vigor”…  It is distinguished from Latin anima, “soul”

Soul

… related to the notion of being “bound” in death, and the practice of ritually binding or restraining the corpse of the deceased in the grave to prevent his or her return as a ghost…  It could refer to a ghost or spirit of the dead … and to a more philosophical notion of an immortal and immaterial essence left over at death … in English variously translated as “soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion”…

Self

The self is the subject of one’s own experience of phenomena: perception, emotions, thoughts. In phenomenology, it is conceived as what experiences, and there isn’t any experiencing without an experiencer, the self. The self is therefore an “immediate given”, an intrinsic dimension of the fact of experiencing phenomena.

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So we have three different concepts here:

  1. Aliveness and vitality in the body that is distinguished from the material body.

  2. An immortal and immaterial essence left over at death that retains desire, emotion, and passions of the person.

  3. The experiencer in a live body, which continues as soul after the death of the body.

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We find that, initially, the physical and spiritual aspects are seen as coexisting in a person. As religion considered the mysteries of birth and death, much thought was given to what happens at death. It was obvious that the physical body disintegrates after death, but do the spiritual aspects of the person disintegrate too?

Another problem was the wild beast nature latent in every person. Plato started out by considering the Ethical problem. That led to the Political problem; which, in turn, led to the Psychological problem. Plato then came up with a solution to this Psychological problem in terms of setting up internal controls. These controls involved the indoctrination of people into believing in a personal God who can judge, reward or punish them. Plato’s solution provided the groundwork for later religions, such as, Christianity, which provides a system of faith designed to set up internal controls to make people behave properly.

The idea of soul was introduced as part of this system of faith. It was assumed that the spiritual aspect of the person survived death. This was the soul of the person that retained the desires, emotions, and passions. The soul was then rewarded or punished based on the actions committed during the person’s life.

The spiritual aspect, which coexisted with the physical aspect, now came to be viewed as separable from each other. This idea was then projected back to the existence before death, and the soul was seen as living in the body but separate from it. This came to be viewed as the self of the person that is independent of the body.

Here we see an abstract idea of spirit evolving and gradually becoming personified as self.

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Comments

  • MarkNR  On December 17, 2013 at 9:03 PM

    Interesting

  • vinaire  On December 17, 2013 at 9:26 PM

    An interesting question to ask is:

    Is there anything of the person that survives death?

    .

    • vinaire  On December 17, 2013 at 9:31 PM

      The physical body survives as the atoms and molecules of its elements.

      What are the elements of spirit, and their atoms and molecules?

      .

      • Elizabeth Hamre  On February 2, 2014 at 12:31 PM

        The spirit do not have elements… Vinaire…this is my subject I am on expert on this field and I am sorry I have missed it in December.

        • vinaire  On February 2, 2014 at 1:21 PM

          Hahaha!

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On February 2, 2014 at 1:43 PM

          CARE TO TELL ME WHY THE HAHAHAHAHAHAHA?????????

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On February 2, 2014 at 1:45 PM

          Are you totally invalidating, putting my reality into the field of zero? I was not accepting such a stupid reaction from you..

        • vinaire  On February 2, 2014 at 1:45 PM

          I was wondering what makes you an expert in your own eyes?

          I never think of myself as an expert because there is always more to learn.

          .

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On February 2, 2014 at 1:48 PM

          your invalidation is the indicator of your ignorance. I have nothing to say to you.

        • MarkNR  On February 2, 2014 at 2:35 PM

          Sometimes, when certainty exists, you just gotta break some rules.

          And Erzsebet, come on. I have something to say to, and learn from, everyone.

          Mark

        • Elizabeth Hamre  On February 2, 2014 at 2:45 PM

          there are no rules in the spiritual universe… so cant brake any…

        • vinaire  On February 2, 2014 at 1:52 PM

          Elizabeth, you are in violation of the discussion policy. Please review

          Discussions and what needs to be avoided

        • vinaire  On February 2, 2014 at 4:14 PM

          Elizabeth is under moderation until she is willing to discuss in the spirit of the Discussion policy.

          She is miscontruing what was written in answer to her comments and she is using that as an excuse to blatantly violate points 2 and 3 of the discussion policy.

          No excuses for the violations of discussion policy are acceptable. Disagreements can be settled through decent behavior.

          .

        • vinaire  On February 3, 2014 at 5:46 AM

          When knowledge and understanding is the goal, self is not important. When one is putting self before knowledge and worried about one’s ego being hurt, then one is not here to discuss and learn.

          Such a person must review and understand the DISCUSSION POLICY and get into the mode of discussing and learning to get in tune with this blog.

        • vinaire  On February 3, 2014 at 6:17 PM

          Mark: “Sometimes, when certainty exists, you just gotta break some rules.”

          I don’t know what rules you are taling about here Mark. Certainy may exist, but one should still allow it to be questioned by others in a discussion.

          Problem occurs when one claims to be expert implying that their beliefs are beyond close inspection. This implication is supported when the person is very touchy about being questioned and quickly becomes abusive.

    • vinaire  On December 18, 2013 at 4:59 AM

      From the viewpoint of consistency, it appears to me that both the physical and the spiritual aspects of a person would disintegrate after death into their respective atoms and molecules.

      These atoms and molecules then recombine to form a new person at birth. The new person continues to grow after birth as input occurs in both physical and spiritual forms. See Death

      .

      • MarkNR  On December 18, 2013 at 9:16 AM

        Not consistent with my observations.

        • 2ndxmr  On December 18, 2013 at 9:46 AM

          Nor mine.

          There is no reason to assume a similarity between decomposing molecules and a spirit that would decompose.

          An atom doesn’t decompose.

          A spirit doesn’t decompose.

        • vinaire  On December 18, 2013 at 1:25 PM

          Mark: “Not consistent with my observations.”

          This is a very fundamental area that goes to the core of each one of us. The discussion will go better to the degree each one of us is mindful and helpful to each other in pointing out the exact inconsistency they see.

          It is not enough to just say, “Not consistent with my observations.”

        • vinaire  On December 18, 2013 at 1:30 PM

          2x: “There is no reason to assume a similarity between decomposing molecules and a spirit that would decompose.”

          Again, it would help if one is more precise and mindful in one’s criticism. You are probably responding to the following statement.

          “From the viewpoint of consistency, it appears to me that both the physical and the spiritual aspects of a person would disintegrate after death into their respective atoms and molecules.”

          This statement doesn’t say anything about “decomposing atoms.”

          .

        • 2ndxmr  On December 18, 2013 at 3:14 PM

          V:”It is not enough to just say, “Not consistent with my observations.””

          It is enough. It becomes like explaining light to a blind man who says there can be no light because he hasn’t seen any. It becomes a real conversation stopper to say “Your explanation holds no merit because I can’t (physically) see it.”

          YOU might say the same argument applies to your reasoning that the spirit decomposes with molecular decomposition. The inconsistency there is that decomposition rates differ among body parts, so if the spirit is defined by the sum of the body parts (molecules) then the spirit will not be ever reborn whole.

          The essence of your argument should be that virtually every human has a homogenous past as we probably all share old molecules or atoms.

          And what about water that enters our body, then passes. Would it not be imbued with your spirit while it is in your body? And would it therefore not transmit some of your spirit to somebody else who drinks water that had formerly passed through your body?

          We are simply too individual to be part of any such homogenizing effect. That would be the logical consequence of analyzing your premise. The result of experiential consideration is that it simply doesn’t jibe with the personal recall of people who can recall past lives and between lives.

        • vinaire  On December 18, 2013 at 3:47 PM

          That is not very helpful.

          Sent from my iPhone

          >

        • Chris Thompson  On December 18, 2013 at 4:19 PM

          2x: so if the spirit is defined by the sum of the body parts (molecules) then the spirit will not be ever reborn whole.

          Ct: Let’s hold that one in reserve for discussion as it is not clear to me that the spirit is born whole, nor that the spirit is unchanging – permanent.

        • Chris Thompson  On December 18, 2013 at 4:21 PM

          2x: We are simply too individual to be part of any such homogenizing effect.

          Ct: That is a good assertion for discussion. I look around me and see people of varying individuality. For instance, I seem to be less individualistic than I used to be.

        • Chris Thompson  On December 18, 2013 at 4:23 PM

          2X: The result of experiential consideration is that it simply doesn’t jibe with the personal recall of people who can recall past lives and between lives.

          Ct: Memory is another good topic for discussion. My eldest daughter and I discuss events that we experienced together and I am routinely amazed at the degree to which our memories differ.

      • Elizabeth Hamre  On February 2, 2014 at 12:47 PM

        No… no. that is not correct.

    • vinaire  On December 18, 2013 at 5:02 AM

      Just like there is no individual body that exists between death and birth, there is no individual soul either that exists between death and birth.

      .

      • Elizabeth Hamre  On February 2, 2014 at 12:51 PM

        The ‘Individual” being one is a consideration and nothing more.. But when one ”talk” one uses that concept.. but that do not mean one is a individual. .

    • vinaire  On December 18, 2013 at 5:08 AM

      The impressions from one life to the next may be carried forward in the form of “atoms” and “molecules” of the spiritual aspect of a person.

      These could be in the form of electronic patterns embedded in physical molecules.

      .

      • 2ndxmr  On December 18, 2013 at 9:54 AM

        V:”These could be in the form of electronic patterns embedded in physical molecules”

        Your first premise was that the molecules of a body would decompose. (Complete decomposition can take a while. Bones last a very long time.)

        Now your premise is that electronic patterns would embed on molecules. Which molecules? The ones that decompose or the ones that don’t?

        • MarkNR  On December 18, 2013 at 12:25 PM

          I don’t agree with Vin’s ideas about atoms and impressions and such. What I do like is that he throws many ideas and concepts out her for us to ponder and discuss. From these discussions I have picked up pieces of data which I have found to be accurate and have assisted me in my quests.
          For instance, my view on the nature of spirituality is well known from my posts but there are some principals which I have not fully laid out. Spiritual beings and theta as a whole are primary to and the source of physical ‘reality’. But we have worked with physical universes and used them as the primary method of interaction and occurrence for a very long time. We have developed systems and methods and habits of how we operate within the physical realm. How do you, as a non physical entity tell your finger to move? Postulate a little bit of energy or move a few molecules or sub atomic particles around, which will cause a small chemical reaction in the brain to send a signal down the nerves and so on. When necessity level goes up the energy can be sent directly to the finger, bypassing the brain.
          But many ‘systems’ and vias have become obsessive habits. Data and knowledge is simply known by the being, but it has become a desire or believed need to carry facsimiles around with one. Many methods to do this have been invented. Two dimensional ‘pictures’ stored in and around atoms, emotional vibrations in the brain or other body parts, even chemical processes which give the body certain ‘feelings’ are used by the being for various purposes. These vias have become so ingrained in an individual that he no longer believes he can do things directly. Words must be used to communicate when direct comm. is much simpler. Energy must be moved and converted from one form to another, when just making things move would be better. Carrying mass in the form of memories makes one feel like he is a something, has substance etc. In actuality these memories can be brought back up and then discarded any time.
          Driving a remote controlled car, or piece of construction equip. has a pleasure to it, probably due the pride in the skill involved in controlling things from a distance. Also, a throwback to when you could do these things yourself.
          Attachments and dependencies on MEST are developed and are not basic. Learning these interactions are interesting and therapeutic and perhaps necessary to be free of them, but are not a basic construct of life.
          Just my observations. Yours are just as important and valid to you. It becomes more clear the more I learn and experience.
          Mark

        • vinaire  On December 18, 2013 at 1:34 PM

          2x: “Your first premise was that the molecules of a body would decompose.”

          That is not correct. Please refer me to the text which gave you that idea.

        • 2ndxmr  On December 19, 2013 at 12:41 AM

          2x: “Your first premise was that the molecules of a body would decompose.”

          V:”That is not correct. Please refer me to the text which gave you that idea.”

          This:

          V:”From the viewpoint of consistency, it appears to me that both the physical and the spiritual aspects of a person would disintegrate after death into their respective atoms and molecules.

        • vinaire  On December 19, 2013 at 5:36 AM

          What I am saying here is that the physical aspects of a person, such as body, shall disintegrate into physical atoms and molecules. Similarly, it seems that the spiritual aspects of a person, such as the thought patterns and capabilities, shall disintegrate into its respective “atoms” and “molecules” of considerations.

          Nowhere I am saying that the molecules themselves would decompose. That is a whole different meaning you are giving to what I said. It is not the same conjecture.

          .

    • vinaire  On December 18, 2013 at 5:12 AM

      In my mind the existence of “between -live” consciousness is questionable.

      It could be some sort of combination at birth of “between-lives” spirtual patterns that become part of the newly formed consciousness.

      .

      • Elizabeth Hamre  On February 2, 2014 at 12:56 PM

        V’…..”In my mind the existence of “between -live” consciousness is questionable.””
        questionable for those who are not aware of such on experience. Those who are aware of ”between lives”‘ to them that is very real.. I speak from experience and that experience is awareness of that facts existence.

        • vinaire  On February 2, 2014 at 1:42 PM

          One can be deceived in one’s experiences. A hypnotized person believes in experiences being his own even when those experiences are actually implanted by a hypnotist.

          Believing in experiences is like believing in absolutes. Such absolutes do not exist. One can go wrong by taking one’s experiences on their face value.

          My understanding is that the way to truth is by resolving inconsistencies, and there can be a long chain of inconsistencies.

    • vinaire  On December 18, 2013 at 5:14 AM

      This provides a new look to the idea of “whole track” in Scientology. It could be how the electonic patterns of DNA impinge on the overall live consciousness.

      .

    • vinaire  On December 18, 2013 at 5:22 AM

      Maybe. at OT levels, Hubbard was trying to straighten out the inconsistencies among the electronic patterns at DNA level.

      But, I believe that this can be accomplished more readily by the mindfulness of KHTK approach.

    • vinaire  On December 18, 2013 at 5:28 AM

      The DNA Codes seems to be formed of the electronic patterns of macromolecules that make up the DNA helics.

      .

    • Elizabeth Hamre  On February 2, 2014 at 12:27 PM

      Only the solid form, the body is gone…

    • Elizabeth Hamre  On February 2, 2014 at 12:36 PM

      Yes, all the previous experiences the spirit had before and now this last lifes experience is recorded 100% and all that goes with the spirit. It do not go anywhere, but the spirit don’t have the attention on any of his history while not having the body.

  • vinaire  On December 18, 2013 at 5:34 AM

    The DNA codes may not only influence the physical aspects of the body, but also the spiritual aspects of a person.

    .

    • vinaire  On December 18, 2013 at 5:35 AM

      These DNA codes survive the death.

      .

      • Chris Thompson  On December 18, 2013 at 12:03 PM

        Vinaire: These DNA codes survive the death.

        Chris: If they have been iterated as progeny.

        • vinaire  On December 18, 2013 at 2:00 PM

          That’s a good point. The DNA is supplied by live parents. But there seem to be evidence in case of prodigies like Mozart that some influences may come from “ether” or “space”.

        • Chris Thompson  On December 18, 2013 at 4:04 PM

          Vinaire: But there seem to be evidence in case of prodigies like Mozart that some influences may come from “ether” or “space”.

          Ct: Maybe, however, I am not feeling the need to go there yet. It is my feeling that DNA coding though possibly simple is yet enormous enough in quantity to provide for natural deviations in ontogenesis to provide for Mozarts, Einsteins, and the like; just as it provides for nonviable fetuses, grotesquely formed children and the like.

          I no longer view a malformed child as sick, no. Unlucky, yes. And the Mozarts, whose talent surpasses any amount of practice for balance? — Lucky. Very lucky.

        • vinaire  On December 18, 2013 at 2:01 PM

          Who knows, but there could be more fundamental coding, which may trigger DNA coding.

        • Chris Thompson  On December 18, 2013 at 4:05 PM

          Vin: Who knows, but there could be more fundamental coding, which may trigger DNA coding.

          Chris: Yes, I am allowing for that. I don’t want to throttle my thinking in any way.

        • vinaire  On December 18, 2013 at 5:21 PM

          As the fertilized egg, and its various stages grow, they acquire additional atoms and molecules from the environment. Similarly, additional patterns (considerations, desires and impulses) that make up the spiritual aspects of the person could also be acquired from the environment. If these things are consistent then the physical and spiritual aspects of the person grow in a healthy manner.

        • Chris Thompson  On December 19, 2013 at 12:29 AM

          I think this is something to have a look at. It seems to me that all the variations in symmetry can be “consistently” accounted for mathematically without resorting to value judgements such as “mistakes.” I don’t think we need there to be inconsistencies necessarily to account for deformations , they too are part of the bigger picture.

        • vinaire  On December 19, 2013 at 6:14 AM

          Inconsistencies themselves make up a whole subject to be explored.

        • Chris Thompson  On December 19, 2013 at 5:05 PM

          VInaire: Inconsistencies themselves make up a whole subject to be explored.

          Chris: The philosophical idea that there are inconsistencies may be found to be inconsistent. Would being dealt a Royal Flush in video (computer) poker be considered an inconsistency? Do we wonder whether any successful theory of physics cannot be calculated mathematically? And if it cannot, then what does that say about the universe in terms of its proportional make up ?

        • vinaire  On December 19, 2013 at 5:42 PM

          Inconsistencies are relative to one’s inherent sense of the context.

          .

        • Chris Thompson  On December 19, 2013 at 10:28 PM

          Vinaire: Inconsistencies are relative to one’s inherent sense of the context.

          Chris: and thus tautologically.

        • vinaire  On December 19, 2013 at 10:36 PM

          tau·tol·o·gy noun
          1. needless repetition of an idea, especially in words other than those of the immediate context, without imparting additional force or clearness, as in “widow woman.”
          2. an instance of such repetition.
          3. Logic.
          a. a compound propositional form all of whose instances are true, as “A or not A.”
          b. an instance of such a form, as “This candidate will win or will not win.”

          Origin:
          1570–80; < Late Latin tautologia < Greek tautología. See tauto-, -logy

          .

          tauto-
          a combining form meaning “same,” used in the formation of compound words: tautomerism.
          Origin: < Greek, combining form of tautó, contraction of tò autó the same

          -logy
          1. a combining form used in the names of sciences or bodies of knowledge: paleontology; theology.
          2. a termination of nouns referring to writing, discourses, collections, etc.: trilogy; martyrology.
          Origin: Middle English -logie < Latin -logia < Greek. See -logue…

          lo·gos
          Origin: < Greek lógos a word, saying, speech, discourse, thought, proportion, ratio, reckoning, akin to légein to choose, gather, recount, tell over, speak; cf. lection

          .

        • Chris Thompson  On December 19, 2013 at 10:38 PM

          Are you helping me or you or the readers?

        • vinaire  On December 19, 2013 at 11:00 PM

          I am trying to help myself by making it easier to be mindful.

        • vinaire  On December 19, 2013 at 11:02 PM

          In what exact sense are you applying it? It has always been perplexing to me.

        • Chris Thompson  On December 20, 2013 at 12:32 AM

          I am sorry for that as I don’t mean to use a word in a specialized or mysterious way. I will discuss this and try to make known what I am trying to get at. (See? – Tautological, saying things over and over using different words as though we are clearing up a meaning or adding to an understanding)

          tau·tol·o·gy noun 1. needless repetition of an idea, especially in words other than those of the immediate context, without imparting additional force or clearness, as in “widow woman.” 2. an instance of such repetition.

          re·cur·sive riˈkərsiv/ adjective 1. characterized by recurrence or repetition, in particular.

          In mathematical logic and computer science, a recursive definition (or inductive definition) is used to define an object in terms of itself (Aczel 1978:740ff).

          The world in which I live looks recursive, self similar, and hence I also use tautological in this sense.

        • vinaire  On December 20, 2013 at 6:28 AM

          So, you are using it in the sense of a fractal, which is more like getting into harmonics and not necessarily “needless”.

        • 2ndxmr  On December 21, 2013 at 3:32 AM

          @Vin and Chris

          My biggest complaint of tautological approach occurs when I see an instance resembling:
          In rhetoric, a tautology (from Greek tauto, “the same” and logos, “word/idea”) is a series of statements that form an argument, whereby the statements are constructed in such a way that the truth of the proposition is guaranteed or that, by defining a dissimilar or synonymous term in terms of another, the truth of the proposition or explanation cannot be disputed. (wiki)

          An example would be a statement like:

          “It is clear that the spectrum of color goes from black to white and since we can’t see black, the only color is white.”

          This is clearly specious reasoning to anyone who can perceive the spectrum between black and white, but could come across as being perfectly logical to someone who can only see white.

          Every now and then we need to add an IMO or other clear notice of our speculations so that they avoid this trap.

        • Chris Thompson  On December 21, 2013 at 8:35 PM

          @2x: I think there’s a complaint in your post since you said there is but it’s not clear to me what unless you mean that I post up major propositions as fact and or maybe that I am too black and white.

          Sometimes I mention that what I write is opinion and sometimes I don’t but it always is except when I am quoting which I make pretty obvious using “quotes.”

          As to black and white — My own perception of myself in this regard is that this would be opposite of my opinions of my models and metaphors. If you know me by now you see I barely think is black until a darker color comes along. And white? White is less black.

          Have I gotten you right?

        • 2ndxmr  On December 22, 2013 at 4:52 PM

          CT:”Have I gotten you right?”

          Not exactly. You said above “The world in which I live looks recursive, self similar, and hence I also use tautological in this sense.”

          I would say that the idea of a recursive world is a concept that is better addressed by the idea of fractals, as you have presented it before.

          Whenever I have accused you or Vin of a tautological argument in the past it has been where I perceived a reasoning structure that used presumptions-presented-as-fact as the argument for a conclusion.

          Also, my example of black and white was to point out an example of a tautology that is extremely self limiting.

          The black/white example is, however, directly in the category of the reasoning that “the thetan has not been scientifically measured, therefore it does not exist.”

          That limited reasoning yields a tautological conclusion that avoids a mix of observations pointing to an extra-corporeal self.

          The conclusion is based solely on the “white” part – the observable (“has not been scientifically measured”) – and omits a spectrum of color (anecdotal observations, relevant QM phenomena and lack of any real attempt, or ability, to make a measurement scientifically.) This omission makes the conclusion appear valid when it isn’t.

          So we can go from “a thetan is unobservable” (black) and “a thetan has not been scientifically measured” (white) to the tautological conclusion “therefore a thetan does not exist”.

          I would argue that “a thetan appears unobservable” (black) “but anecdotal observations of phenomena cannot be easily discounted, nor can similarities to certain quantum phenomena” (spectrum of color) “so while science has not produced a measurement of a thetan – if indeed it has adequately tried – it has also not measured the fine points of quantum phenomena,” (white) “therefore a lack of direct observation at this point in time cannot be a determining factor in coming to a conclusion about the existence or non-existence of a thetan.”

          That may be a gray conclusion but it opens rather than closes the door on further attempts at finding a scientific method for observation.

        • Chris Thompson  On December 22, 2013 at 5:17 PM

          Ok I got you. I work all the time to Keep my mind open. The way I use tautological might be best kept to myself as an anecdote for my personal mental device until such a time as I can communicate better our until I abandon it.

      • Elizabeth Hamre  On February 2, 2014 at 12:46 PM

        OH YES!! the DNA survives the body and will effect the next body the spirit will occupies, but the problem is that the NEW PARENTS DNA also will effect that body.. so the ORIGINAL DNA has been altered many times as the person changes the body… As you can see, this spirit will take the altered DNA memory with him. The very basic of the DNA will never alter since its original energy is so strong that it cant be touched by simple will to change. The original DNA was created for different bodied than what humans have. Those bodies were controlled totally by the DNA.. like computer chips make machines function.. DNA. is nothing more than that a mechanically created control device, a computer chip.

        • vinaire  On February 2, 2014 at 2:18 PM

          DNA could be used as a part of the indexing system of memory and programming code storage.

    • vinaire  On December 18, 2013 at 5:37 AM

      Looks like my thinking is moving back from Scientology to Dianetics.

      .

      • Chris Thompson  On December 18, 2013 at 12:06 PM

        In the future, I suppose that we will not view this so dichotomously as Dianetics and Scientology.

        • vinaire  On December 18, 2013 at 2:03 PM

          Once we sort out all the inconsistencies, the two will become just one subject.

    • vinaire  On December 18, 2013 at 5:40 AM

      The programming at DNA level seems to influence both physical and spiritual aspects of a person.

      But there seems to be something beyond these physical and spiritual aspects that is unknowable.

      .

      • Chris Thompson  On December 18, 2013 at 12:17 PM

        Vinaire: But there is something beyond these physical and spiritual aspects that is unknowable.

        Chris: Which is fine to believe but if we are mindful, we will be aware of this as a conjecture. We as ourselves will not know beyond the physical. That is knowable. That is who and what we are. We can expand the envelope of that ballooning sphere which is comprised of our considerations. That seems to be allowed within the parameters of our programming. It seems that we have the capability to erase some of our programming as well and replace it with other programming or not.

        • vinaire  On December 18, 2013 at 2:05 PM

          I am sure you believe that there is a lot unknown here, though you may disagree with me using the word unknowable.

        • Chris Thompson  On December 18, 2013 at 4:08 PM

          It is fine, I don’t care about that word. I just want to remain mindful as I look around me. As you are well aware, people have contested the finality and thought stopping of that word. What I do think for sure is that there is plenty of room left for us to explore, to learn and to know about our world not to get bogged down in the spooky effects. Let’s just continue.

  • vinaire  On December 18, 2013 at 5:45 AM

    DIANETICS + CHRISTIANITY = SCIENTOLOGY

    The Church of Scientology is now trying to mimic the grandeur of the Catholic Church.

    .

  • vinaire  On December 18, 2013 at 8:51 AM

    The idea of individuality moves the concept of spirit closer to the concept of soul.

    • Chris Thompson  On December 18, 2013 at 3:46 PM

      Vin: The idea of individuality moves the concept of spirit closer to the concept of soul.

      Ct: Possibly paralleling the condensation pattern of other physical objects.

  • vinaire  On December 18, 2013 at 8:51 AM

    The idea of ghost moves the concept of soul closer to the concept of self that is beset by mind and mental illness.

  • vinaire  On December 18, 2013 at 2:13 PM

    https://vinaire.me/2013/12/17/evolution-from-spirit-to-self/#comment-15538

    Mark: “Spiritual beings and theta as a whole are primary to and the source of physical ‘reality’.”

    It should be well known from my posts that I question the above datum because I believe that a being itself has a structure.

    A being is not the primary element. It is a compound having a structure. I know this is a radical idea for some. But this idea has been there since Buddhism. So it is not such a radical idea for me. Therefore, I want to fully examine this idea without resisting it. If obvious inconsistencies show up then I would have to resolve them.

    I am pretty good at acknowlleding inconsistencies in my own work. But people have to point them out precisely, and not just based on their differing belief.

    .

    • MarkNR  On December 18, 2013 at 8:32 PM

      Hi Vin.:
      Got some experiences that may be applicable to this conversation.
      Between lives.
      My experience has been similar to that described in the Tibetan Book of the Dead. Upon death and separation to whatever degree, one is confused disoriented and unable to properly perceive or communicate with the world around you. Like a semi conscious daze or muddled dream. A few times I felt very empty and lost. I mean physically lost like being out in the woods 100 miles from anywhere. I had just lost my means of communication and my brain, which I had used to do a lot of my automatic thinking for me.
      After a time, I began trying to look around for myself and see where I was and what was going on. Several times I mocked up a body, like a ghost or something, but not always. Sometimes I was simply like a camera, looking around. After awhile, a few days or so, I became more and more aware of my surroundings, but I noticed that I couldn’t understand anything anyone was saying. Just gibberish. But after a little more time, the world became crystal clear with a sensation of calm and knowingness. I later discovered that this was false and implanted.
      During this time I felt and thought as an individual and was able to make conscious decisions.
      About 175 yrs ago, I was hung in the swamps of southern Georgia. The somatic that led me to it was a spacial disorientation and a feeling of not being able to balance. The trees in the swamp grow and root into the layers of moss over a layer of water. The ‘ground’ and the trees sway constantly and make one feel unsteady.
      After regaining my senses. I made a decision never to be (a certain race) again. This has since caused several inconsistencies since my killers were white, and I decided to be white. I’ve had a sympathy and unease about minorities that completely blew when I found this incident. I’ve made other decisions during the between lives times that carried through to my next life or 2 or 3. To be smart from now on, or that I had to be tough. This was sometimes modified during my next childhood, such as this life when I decided I wanted everyone to like me.
      To be continued,
      Mark

      • vinaire  On December 18, 2013 at 8:50 PM

        Thank you for trusting me with your experience, Mark. I would say that this experience is real to you. But how does one make it consistent with rest of the reality without assuming anything? How does one differentiate such an experience from a vivid dream?

        I wonder if such experiences were there before the advent of Scientology?

        I look at such experiences with mindfulness, because many others have come up with similar experiences. But dreams are quite common too. I see many holes in understanding this phenomenon.. I am not satisfied with the explanations given so far.

        I shall keep looking. :).

        • 2ndxmr  On December 19, 2013 at 1:06 AM

          V:”I wonder if such experiences were there before the advent of Scientology?”

          Not sure what you mean by that but I had past life recalls as a youngster even before we had a TV as something that could have been a memory influencer.

          Also, I don’t think our radio was an actual influence on these memories either as I tended not to listen to it.

          One of my more interesting recalls was that I even knew of Roswell long before I ever heard the word. I’m not saying I had been there, I’m saying I knew of it, like it had been “yesterday’s event” even though it was some years before my birth.

          The memories I had were too unconnected to anything in my life to have not simply been mine. The things I recalled were never the part of any conversation or subject of a conversation that was the usual type of conversation in our area. Some of that stuff – like the Roswell story – was just stuff that I figured everyone knew because I did.

        • vinaire  On December 19, 2013 at 5:43 AM

          I have had such recalls too that seem to be disconnected with this life, such as, being in a space ship that crashed into this earth.

          But to say that I lived before as the whole person I am today is not the only conjecture possible. That piece of memory could be an “atom” or “molecule” of disintegrated spiritual aspect of some other person.

          .

        • Chris Thompson  On December 19, 2013 at 4:54 PM

          Vinaire: That piece of memory could be an “atom” or “molecule” of disintegrated spiritual aspect of some other person.

          Chris: A Wiccan friend once explained whole track recall to me in just this way. At the time, as a true believer, I felt very sorry for her that she couldn’t know and be certain of what I was. Her take on death was that nothing is gained nor lost because the entire person dissolves and continues their participation as part of the cycle of life.

        • vinaire  On December 19, 2013 at 5:39 PM

          Chris: A Wiccan friend once explained…

          Isn’t it interesting that I am headed in that direction. The only thing to guide me is my sense of inherent consistency.

          .

        • 2ndxmr  On December 19, 2013 at 1:38 PM

          v:”That piece of memory could be an “atom” or “molecule” of disintegrated spiritual aspect of some other person.”

          I think that when you finally figure out for yourself the possible mechanism of recording that would allow an atom to transfer this memory, you will also have to admit the likelihood that the spirit and the atom use the same recording method.

          That recording will not be in the wave patterns of the electrons or other elementary particles since those patterns must be invariant outside of narrow energy bands. The recordings will have to be in the meta state; the probabilistic state with its potential of infinite bandwidth. That state is the same state that I expect the spirit to fundamentally spring from.

          I speculated some time ago about atoms also being able to record via the probabilistic state after reading an article about remote viewers scanning asteroids to pick up on the “memory” of the asteroid as to how it originated. This speculation led me to consider a mechanism for memory retrieval on which I look forward to a blog discussion.

        • vinaire  On December 19, 2013 at 1:44 PM

          In this context,

          atom = anything extremely small; a minute quantity

          molecule = any very small particle

          And we are not talking about quantity or particle of matter (something physical).

        • vinaire  On December 19, 2013 at 5:30 PM

          I believe that memory is stored in the patterns of electrons in the macromolecules. The many nuclei of the macromolecule may act to stabilize the electron cloud around them. There seems to be enough electrons in that cloud to act as an atomic or molecular chip..

      • MarkNR  On December 18, 2013 at 10:32 PM

        continued: Incident in Georgia
        According to the rules of Routine 3, this was the basic on the engram chain, with the resolution of a confusion and great relief, physically and emotionally. But I took another look and recently decided to break some rules and strike out on my own.
        I gathered up all the words associated with the incident and then all the words and phrases associated with the emotions and feelings connected with this chain. This was a direct approach, not using any vias such as ‘Having other bodies’ or similar tricks. I did assessments on 4 flows and went down several chains containing a few hundred incidents. This went fairly quickly as I scanned most of them once, looking for reads that i am familiar with when I run across confusions.
        Using attitudes learned from your write-ups on mindfulness and understandings of TR-0 gained from the Tao, I looked directly at the most basic incidents, while taking full ownership for the occurrences. Yes, I did get pissed off, tie up that little boy and torture him and then justify and brag about it to my friends. That was ME. It is easy to fall into a habit of looking at one’s actions as a movie, not as oneself. If I got stuck, I would look back at my notes and try to find the primary intentions that led me to the confusion.
        This method of following what one finds along the way has left me buttered all over the universe in the past, so I am staying disciplined in following one particular line at a time. One can go in several directions with no major resolution of any of them. I always re-assess after a realization and often smaller reads will disappear, while some others will become BDs, ready to be followed.
        This is one example of the work I have been doing and my life has changed completely more than once. The work has become very fun and I love life and everyone I meet.
        To be continued: Possibly a new ability.
        Mark

        • MarkNR  On December 18, 2013 at 11:11 PM

          continued: #3
          An interesting thing happened during a my work the other day.
          There was an incident in which an opponent in a game knew that I had lied about my activities and I didn’t know why. The game was during an era when everything was lighthearted and getting killed or injured was no big deal. But I was confused about how he had found out. I liked the guy, we had been partners in several other dealings. I decided, during session, to really admire him and be fully in his position. I got the idea that a particular person had told him, so I looked at both of them at the same time with love and admiration. I saw the moment that they communicated which resolved the misunderstanding. I looked down a time track that wasn’t specifically mine.
          I was so excited I couldn’t audit for over a week. I now find myself occasionally knowing where my wife has just been or something my brother said in a conversation. Two people I am very close to. Haven’t done it on command in present time, but the fact that the possibility is there is so exciting. I am working on a routine to try and discover what considerations stunted the ability to look down the whole, whole track.
          I’ll keep you all updated.
          Love:
          Mark

        • vinaire  On December 19, 2013 at 6:02 AM

          Word Clearing, as described recently, seem to address “atoms” and “molecules” of confusion in the proper context rapidly.

          Subject Clearing, as described recently, seem to address a bigger area of confusion by resolving all inconsistencies among the parts.

          It is interesting to see how you are applying this to auditing. 🙂

        • Chris Thompson  On December 19, 2013 at 4:55 PM

          Vin: It is interesting to see how you are applying this to auditing. 🙂

          CT: I think so too.

  • vinaire  On December 18, 2013 at 2:21 PM

    https://vinaire.me/2013/12/17/evolution-from-spirit-to-self/#comment-15538

    Mark” “Postulate a little bit of energy or move a few molecules or sub atomic particles around, which will cause a small chemical reaction in the brain to send a signal down the nerves and so on.”

    No one seems to have deeply thought over the following questions:

    (1) What is the mechahism of postulation?

    (2) How does postulation bring about energy? Doesn’t postulation require energy itself? Is postulation some kind of an energy transmitting or conversion process?

    People seem seem to be satisfied by simply making the later connections while ignoring the starting point of those connections.

    • MarkNR  On December 18, 2013 at 7:13 PM

      Sorry Vin, but I’m afraid we are just going to have to disagree on this point about the basic structure of spirituality. That’s OK, this discussion has been going on for a very long time and, hopefully, will never stop.
      My contention is that ALL structure, energies, attachments and methods of handling MEST, including the handling of bodies is secondary and invented. The concept of something being completely outside of structure may be hard to grasp, or even sound like an oversimplification due to lack of data and understanding. (The why is God) But the most basic is very simple, later inventions become increasingly complex.
      I read all your posts and have found much info and ideas to be useful. Keep it up.
      Mark

      • vinaire  On December 18, 2013 at 7:36 PM

        There is no agreement or disagreement in my system. There is only consistency or inconsistency. 🙂

        If you are looking at an inconsistency you need to isolate, identify and resolve it. You don’t require anybody’s agreement for that. That is the kind of effort that has led me to KHTK.

        .

      • Chris Thompson  On December 19, 2013 at 12:46 AM

        Mark, Those concepts are not hard to grasp, but the point is that they are not actually “outside” anything physical. And the stress and strain of reaching to actualize a thought of any sort that is outside this existence seems to me an ungratifying treadmill.

  • Nic  On December 18, 2013 at 4:41 PM

    Hello Vin, happy holidays to all.
    Nic ARC infinity

    • vinaire  On December 18, 2013 at 6:46 PM

      Thank you, Nic. And the same to you. All my best wishes, Vinaire

      Sent from my iPhone

      >

  • vinaire  On December 18, 2013 at 4:54 PM

    2x: “YOU might say the same argument applies to your reasoning that the spirit decomposes with molecular decomposition.”

    For the third time let me tell you that is not my reasoning. Why do you keep repeating that? Please go back and read what I wrote.

    Please be mindful.

  • vinaire  On December 18, 2013 at 5:08 PM

    This is what I stated earlier in the “Death” reference, which, for some reason 2x is distorting:

    “At death, the body disintegrates into physical particles (atoms and molecules), and the identity that was the body is dissolved. Similarly, the observing and thinking part of the person (the living soul) also disintegrates into considerations (thoughts, ideas, assumptions, expectations, suppositions, conjectures, speculations, etc.), and the identity that was the person is also dissolved. That is my current understanding.”

    I want to remind 2x that we are on the same side trying to explore an unknown territory. We make conjectures and try to locate inconsistencies in those conjectures through thought experiments. There is no effort here to offend anybody. You are welcome to point out inconsistencies in these conjectures.

    It doesn’t help in any discussion to simply say, “You are wrong and I am right.” You have to be helpful by pointing out the inconsistency.

    The “atoms” and “molecules” of spiritual aspects of a person are considerations, desires and impulses according to my conjecture.

    .

  • vinaire  On December 18, 2013 at 9:48 PM

    The ultimate essesnce of spirit seems to be motion and capability of motion. Awareness depends on motion. Without motion there is no awareness.

    So, spirit and awareness go together because of this common denominator of motion.

    .

  • vinaire  On December 18, 2013 at 9:52 PM

    “Unlike the concept of souls (often regarded as eternal and sometimes believed to pre-exist the body) a spirit develops and grows as an integral aspect of a living being.” ~ Wikipedia.

    • vinaire  On December 18, 2013 at 10:09 PM

      From the sense of mindfulness, spirit makes perfect sense as an integral aspect of a living thing. The idea of soul, however, appears suspect.

      It is interesting that soul is associated with religion and subject to control.

  • vinaire  On December 18, 2013 at 10:21 PM

    Ghost as “a wandering spirit that contains vestiges of mind and consciousness” makes more sense. A ghost seems to be the disintegrated personality similar to the disintegrating body.

    • vinaire  On December 19, 2013 at 7:51 AM

      We observe disintegrating spiritual aspects in mental illness, just as we see disintegrating physical aspects in physical illness.

  • vinaire  On December 19, 2013 at 6:48 AM

    The journey from spirit to soul to self to ego and finally to thetan is a path to interiorization.

    .

    • Chris Thompson  On December 19, 2013 at 5:15 PM

      Vinaire: The journey from spirit to soul to self to ego is a path to interiorization.

      Chris: That is well said. And yet, as I look at that, is there anything more definitively interior about interiorization than there is exterior about exteriorization? Again, here I go with the fractals. There doesn’t seem to be a correctly superlative form of the word or adjective for being.

  • vinaire  On December 19, 2013 at 8:44 AM

    This is one of the views about spirit from Wikipedia, which is worth quoting here:

    “Individual spirits envisaged as interconnected with all other spirits and with “The Spirit” (singular and capitalized). This concept relates to theories of a unified spirituality, to universal consciousness and to some concepts of Deity. In this scenario all separate “spirits”, when connected, form a greater unity, the Spirit, which has an identity separate from its elements plus a consciousness and intellect greater than its elements; an ultimate, unified, non-dual awareness or force of life combining or transcending all individual units of consciousness. The experience of such a connection can become a primary basis for spiritual belief. The term spirit occurs in this sense in (to name but a few) Anthroposophy, Aurobindo, A Course In Miracles, Hegel, Ken Wilber, and Meher Baba (though in his teachings, “spirits” are only apparently separate from each other and from “The Spirit.”)[10] In this use, the term seems conceptually identical to Plotinus’s “The One” and Friedrich Schelling’s “Absolute”. Similarly, according to the panentheistic/pantheistic view, Spirit equates to essence that can manifest itself as mind/soul through any level in pantheistic hierarchy/holarchy, such as through a mind/soul of a single cell (with very primitive, elemental consciousness), or through a human or animal mind/soul (with consciousness on a level of organic synergy of an individual human/animal), or through a (superior) mind/soul with synergetically extremely complex/sophisticated consciousness of whole galaxies involving all sub-levels, all emanating (since the superior mind/soul operates non-dimensionally, or trans-dimensionally) from the one Spirit.”

    .

  • Chris Thompson  On December 19, 2013 at 10:25 PM

    Vinaire: Inconsistencies are relative to one’s inherent sense of the context.

    Chris: As my inherent sense of the context has become change, then so has my inherent sense of truth.

    • vinaire  On December 19, 2013 at 10:27 PM

      If the inherent sense of context is change then anything permanent would appear to be inconsistent.

      .

      • Chris Thompson  On December 19, 2013 at 10:37 PM

        Vinaire: If the inherent sense of context is change then anything permanent would appear to be inconsistent.

        Chris: Yes as does the seeming compulsion of some to “make things hold still” or “hold the status quo.” It no longer seems logical to me to fixate on the permanence of things.

        • vinaire  On December 19, 2013 at 10:39 PM

          Attachment!

        • Chris Thompson  On December 20, 2013 at 12:19 AM

          Yup. It no longer seems like a philosophical point to be yearned or striven for but rather the way things are. Your photo of the last Jew in Vinnitsa and also when watching the horrific video on KG’s blog of the old African people being tortured and burned alive made me consider this.

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