Here is an example of a modern Scientology OT:
A Scientology OT seems to be fixated on the salvation of the self. He treats self as something that needs to be boosted up, made powerful and glorified. But self is relative, conditioned and impermanent.
“The Absolute Truth is that there is nothing absolute in the world, that everything is relative, conditioned and impermanent, and that there is no unchanging, everlasting, absolute substance like Self, Soul, or Ātman within or without.” ~ Buddha
This fixation on self is one of the problems with Scientology. This is also pertinent to the manipulation of self, as in brainwashing.
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Comments
In response to Geir
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I think there are no purpose for the past other than keeping it there for the purpose of the future. I believe purposes for the future are generated by the individual, but that there is a basic purpose of the creation of an effect (a definition of a cause).
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Didn’t Hubbard say, “Cause is motivated by future.”
Doesn’t this mean, “No future = no cause.”
To me this whole idea of Cause is a construct. This is not the basic truth. For a manifestation to come about it is not necessary that there be a cause. A manifestation, such as, an intuition, may occur spontaneously without any logical cause being there.
It is a fixation that for a manifestation to occur a prior cause must be there. The whole idea of “individuality” is based on this assumption.
There is no prior Cause as declared by FACTOR #1.
The ultimate truth is not individuality as declared by SCIENTOLOGY AXIOM #1.
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NOTE: My responses to Geir on his blog are continued to be moderated. It is not because I am obnoxious. It is simply because Geir feels that his “OT 8 status” might be unmocked by my responses.
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In response to Geir’s Blog:
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2013-02-23 AT 07:36
I haven’t figured out why a person attacks so much. Can you tell me?
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isene
2013-02-23 AT 11:57
I believe it comes from a deep-felt disharmony to what they hold as truth.
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Marianne Toth
2013-02-23 AT 12:47
Like! (desires, values…hm. deep issue)
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An individuality is simply the “doughnut hole” isn’t it? The doughnut is made up of those considerations (desires, values…hm. deep issue). Ha, ha!
What is Geir?
What is Vinaire?
What is Marianne?
These is just a bunch of tightly knit considerations separate from each other.
Scientology became popular within countries with western ideologies only. Why? Because the western ideology worships individuality. Scientology simply resonated with that ideology by making individuality AXIOM #1.
Scientology now appears rotten, but what is really rotten is this fixation on individuality. One cannot blame Scientology without also blaming the western cultural fixation on individuality.
Geir may distance himself from Scientology, but he may find it much more difficult to distance himself from his cultural fixation on individuality.
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NOTE: My responses to Geir on his blog are continued to be moderated. It is not because I am obnoxious. It is simply because Geir feels that his “OT 8 status” might be unmocked by my responses.
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Like Scientology, Geir Isene appears to be very sensitive to being criticized, while he freely engages in criticism of others.
This is a huge inconsistency for a supposedly spiritually developed person.
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My responses on Geir’s Blog are not just in moderation queue, they seem to be deleted now.
I seem to be on a permanent vacation from Geir’s blog. Great!
Non-confront? From an OT 8? Wow!
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There goes the sham of allowing free communication on Geir’s Blog.
It is not obnoxiousness or arrogance on my part. It is simply the inability on Geir’s part to face the challenge that my ideas bring forth.
Here is an OT 8 with feet of clay.
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feet of clay noun
1. a weakness or hidden flaw in the character of a greatly admired or respected person: He was disillusioned to find that even Lincoln had feet of clay.
2. any unexpected or critical fault.
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I don’t know why you expect anything out of the ordinary from an “OT 8”.
One would ordinarily have a lot of expectations from an OT 8 with the hype that surrounds it.
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Hi Marianne,
Thank you for your recent responses. I am leaving tomorrow on a trip to India. I may check on my blog during the trip.
See ya,
Vinay
Have fun Vinay. Take photos and do something on your bucket list!
Thank you, Chris. What have you been up to lately?
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Poured my last big batch (13-1/2 yards) of concrete last weekend. Next, I’ve got to get around to building a patio cover . . . I must be getting toward the end of my home improvements list pretty soon.
Ah! You are young and feisty.
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Vin: Ah! You are young and feisty.
Chris: I am old and have a crew, but at least by the way I use the word “I” when I write, you can see that I am fixated on the Self !
Can you give a little itinerary of your trip? Will you do exotic things or just visit or what? (I must live vicariously through you)
In India, Jyoti and I shall be spending time with our families. We shall be going to my Alma Mater (Indian Institute of Technology, Kanpur) to attend a 3 days reunion of my engineering college mates after 50 years. There are all kind of programs at the institute.
In Myanmar we have the following:
10 Mar
Arr. Yangon and transfer to Summit Parkview Hotel (Dlx) for overnight.
11 Mar
YGN/HHO by W9 119 (10:30-11:40).
Transfer to Inle Khaung Daing Resort (Cottage Dlx) for 2 nights.
Fullday touring in Inle Lake with tour guide.
12 Mar
Indein village excursion and Inle Lake sightseeings with tour guide.
13 Mar
Transfer to the airport to take HHO/MDY by W9 119 (11:55-12:25).
Transfer to Ayeyarwaddy Riverview Hotel (Dlx) for overnight.
Continue fullday touring in Mandalay with tour guide.
14 Mar
Transfer to the airport to take MDY/NYU by W9 205 (07:40-08:10) .
Transfer to Thande Hotel (Dlx) for overnight.
Continue touring in Bagan with tour guide.
15 Mar
Fullday touring in Bagan and take NYU/YGN by W9 211(18:25-19:45).
Transfer to Summit Parkview Hotel (Dlx) for overnight.
16 Mar
Transfer to the airport for your departure flight at 06:30.
On our way back we shall be spending a couple of days in DOHA, Qatar shopping and sight seeing.
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Wow! I am so envious! It seems that you are no longer “good for nothing!”
My wife is very happy when I cooperate with her travel plans.
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Yayyy! You are a good husband!
LOL! They is no other choice.
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Hi Vin,
Have a nice trip and enjoy each minute of it! I “think” of you a lot! Will come here again!
LOVE marianne
Hello Marriane. Just arrived here in Doha, Qatar. My flight to Delhi, India leaves in a couple of hours. I shall be responding to comments on this blog.
. . . or while waiting, you could get your wife drunk and then try to take advantage of her!
I am put on moderation on Geir’s Blog again. So, I think it is time to stop wasting my time there. I make great progress on my own blog with my mindful friends.
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Geir accuses me of making snide comments. I think he sees himself in me. He himself is snide as hell. He has quite an “OT 8” filter going.
He is not out of Scientology’s shadow yet.
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Part of “OT 8 filter” is:
“I am an OT. I don’t want anybody stealing my thunder.”
Hubbard had this filter.
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Several commenters on Geir’s blog clash with Geir or the other commenters, get irritated by that, leave and swear off. Later renege and come back then back and forth. To me, this seems like energy wasted and opportunities missed.
Not one of us who were in the cult of Scientology are out of its shadow. Will we ever be? No more than the DNA of early man will ever be out of our genetic code.
I blog for the stimulating questions and propositions which prompt my imagination. That is why I spend so much time with you and with Geir.
When egos clash, I don’t think the sound which emerges is ever the sound of “one ego clapping.” Except in the case of me and Marildi, in which case it is only her ego and not mne which is inflamed! hahaha!
The following policy keeps the ego in check, and that includes my own ego.
Discussions and what needs to be avoided
Geir and Marildi violate this policy at the drop of a hat. There is no check on Geir’s blog.
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If and when our communications of our opinions are not well received, it seems that mindfulness can quell the acid reflux associated with such clashes.
Mindfulness means looking at bullying as bullying and taking action to stop it, or just leave.
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I’m not sure there is a pat protocol for this. On this topic, being comfortable with oneself seems to be of overriding importance to me. After that, it seems that controversial minutia can tend to slip away, can be allowed to simply drop. It’s only blogging after all.
Yes, ultimately one needs to be consistent within oneself to the best of one’s ability. This time I have decided not to pull any punches.
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It seems that you might let Marildi’s comments, etc., simply stand on their own without response. Most writers there seem to have her comments well in hand. She has really become the poster-girl for what can be accomplished by being a Scientologist, so for me, ’nuff said. Even if I interact, my comments to her are not only for her but for others. I just hate to see you chop off this line with Geir as except with these clashes when the comments go wide from the OP, your presence there is valuable for me and provides a balancing counterpoint that helps me think.
I can’t respond to you on Geir’s blog because he has me under moderation again. So, I shall be responding to you here.
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Ok
Geir’s problem is that he feels that I am exploiting his blog by putting links on it to my blog. That idea is a games condition that belongs only in his head.
What’s wrong with pooling knowledge? You don’t have any such feeling when I put links to my blog on your blog.
What am I doing to harm Geir’s blog. What is he trying to protect?
The only conclusion I come up with that he feels that I am stealing his thunder. And that is plain play of ego.
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My following response on Geir’s blog is under moderation. Let’s see if it show’s up.
Putting Marildi’s argument in proper perspective with Goedel, all Scientology axioms may be consistent, but they are not complete.
Scientology axiom #1 is a theoretical conjecture only and it has no basis in fact. It is the traditional “God” postulate in a new garb. It is an attempt to make “God” look more scientific. But it cannot be sustained logically.
From mindfulness perspective, one should start with what is obviously there. This has led me to the first chapter of my book as follows:
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CHAPTER 1: Objective and Subjective
“The existence in us of psychic life, i.e., of sensations, perceptions, conceptions, reasoning, feeling, desires etc., and the existence of the world outside of us—from these two fundamental data immediately proceed our common and clearly understood division of everything that we know into subjective and objective.”
~ TERTIUM ORGANUM, ~ P.D. Ouspensky.
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Is reality truly that which is objective? Is reality falsely colored by what is subjective?
Objectivity is generally defined as “the state or quality of being true even outside of a subject‘s individual feelings, imaginings, or interpretations.”
Subjectivity is generally defined as “the condition of being a subject and the subject’s perspective, experiences, feelings, beliefs, and desires.”
A subject is an observer whereas an object is a thing observed. Objectivity means perceiving an object for what it is. Subjectivity means adding distortion or color to what is there.
The ultimate definition of objectivity is given by Kant as “thing-in-itself,” This theoretical absolute in objectivity is beyond sense perception because even the very act of perceiving seems to shape our experience of things.
We shall never know the object, which is there, in an absolute sense. Our perception will always be subjective to some degree.
To objectively understand what is really there, we should observe things as they are without known assumptions, expectations, or speculations. In addition, we should always remain alert for unknown subjectivity, and make corrections for that subjectivity wherever it is found.
This is mindfulness.
LINK: Reality & Mindfulness
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The following is an interesting comment by Chris Thompson on Geir’s Blog:
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Hi deE, Marildi views our discussions as an ongoing debate on Scientology — something which can be won. I don’t see what we are doing on our blogs in that same way. I mostly inquire from the viewpoint of I don’t know and then when I debate a point, I mean to exploit any weakness in the point and not the person. When I slip up and get snarky or go after a person, I regret it.
As an example, the discussion on Axiom 1 of Scientology has been very well worn out with Axiom 1 being shown to be fallacious outside the metes and bounds of Scientology. Yet Marildi asks Vin whether he can name any inconsistencies in the axioms of Scientology. This is not a sincere inquiry on her part but an attempt to draw Vin into an emotional and fallacious argument as she does not look at these inconsistencies and address or confront them as they are presented. Vin has his issues too but sticks to his research and his output in this area is impressive. Yes, he still makes pronouncements a bit condescending at times, but it is just his style and culture and do not seem to faze his ability to review and correct or begin again even after going quite a ways down a particular line of thinking. Additionally, this is a defensive posture as when he is in a safer environment such as on his or my blog, he doesn’t really do this at all. When he is unhappy with the consistency of his work, he scraps it and begins again. In this regard, he has really earned my respect as he has scrapped mountains of writing and begun again, several times this year. Not many writers have the heart to go to this much trouble. Also, Vin is very forthcoming and honest about himself and experiences in Scientology whereas Marildi is still in the closet. She is in the closet out of a fear of something which would be for her to explain. Saying that may sound mean, maybe its mean. Marildi has shown for an years that she is not inquiring into Scientology as she already knows that Scientology is correct. Her comments and references are in the form of proving Scientology and Hubbard to be consistent and the best method for improving humans no matter the evidence to the contrary. Her misunderstanding is over the difference between the consistency of Scientology within the bubble of Scientology vs. the inconsistency of Scientology when viewed from outside the bubble of Scientology. What she is doing that is wrong is trying to apply Scientology outside its own frame of reference and she refuses to believe that someone like me can understand what she is talking about and grant that Scientology is consistent within its own self defined context.
Vinaire is a new and improved Vinaire with a lot to contribute. Marildi has my respect as an excellent researcher and writer with a lot to contribute but until her brainwashed status of true believer in Scientology is modified, her comments here aside from here friendly social comments are going to be mostly ignored as Scientology is quickly falling into the category of old hat. I and a few others have moved on with our thinking. I didn’t want to go on so long about this but just kept typing. Guilty of excessive typing on a computer.
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Both Geir and Marildi try to exploit the weakness in the person and not the weakness in the point being discussed. That is how they try to win their point.
This is typical of how Hubbard behaved, and it seems to be built into Scientology.
The following policy of discussions cuts right through it.
Discussions and what needs to be avoided
This policy is deadly for a Scientology mindset.
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Geir has been calling me snide while being snide himself. He didn’t like it when his snideness was pointed out to him.
Geir wants to force politeness on his blog. Anything forced is not natural. Politeness will come naturally when the focus is on the topic of discussion and not on participants.
Geir can never achieve politeness on his blog by forcing it by decree. He will only generate sycophants, or people who are limited in their expression because they have to mind their p’s and q’s. That hinders free thought.
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I understand your comments and agree that sincere politeness cannot be decreed, but not why the discussion on Geir’s is setting your teeth on edge.
It is not a one time thing. Please see below.
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This is in response to the following from Chris Thompson:
https://vinaire.me/2013/01/28/comments-to-communications-on-other-blogs/#comment-9572
More than Marildi, who comes across insincere to me is Geir. I met him in Oslo, Norway. My wife is a good observer of people.
When my wife found that Geir has broken from his wife, she was shocked. When we were in Oslo, Geir talked about his wife in most glowing terms. How wonderful his family and children were and how much he loved them etc. Then right after his divorce, he just talked about his new girlfriend in most glowing terms. He no longer had much to say about his ex-wife. His glowing references to his girlfriend must have hurt his ex-wife quite a bit. The children are there but he no longer talks about them as he did before. Looks like children spend most of their time with his ex-wife. What seems to be important to Geir is he himself and his current interests.
At one time Geir wanted to go with me to India. But when the time came he had conveniently forgotten all about it. That made me wonder how sincere his earlier enthusiasm was. There are other indicators that make me doubt his sincerity. He seemed to praise KHTK at one time, sort of did recently too, but he has hardly ever commented on my blog positively, or participated in discussions there. That makes me raise my eyebrows about his sincerity for his praise for KHTK and mindfulness. Is he really interested in exploring the mind, spirit, free will, etc., as he seems to claim?
What is more important to him are the statistics of his blog. He sees me as a competitor. What about knowledge? What about cooperation?
Geir seems to place value on knowledge based on its source. Can he evaluate knowledge for itself? I wonder. He would not give any value to discussion policy simply because I wrote it. He has never commented on it. This tells me that he is shallow in his understanding. He is more of a PR personality. He has some other axe to grind.
What I have observed about Geir is that he is skilled in making people feel good about themselves by supporting their ego when it serves his purpose, and then simply cutting them off, or putting them down, as it serves his purpose. Sincerity has a sort of consistency to it. I don’t find that consistency in Geir.
Bottom line of what bothers me about Geir is that he is insincere. He has demonstrated that to me in many ways.
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Chris, I can trust you and Rafael completely, but I can’t trust Geir. I can trust Maria to some degree too, but I shall reserve my final judgment about her.
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Right now Geir is monitoring me tightly on his blog. Where things stand, I have to deal with his considerations fully first before I respond to others on his blog.
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Traduttore
Hello Vin . , Geir was wrong to use that term.
Could clarify the subject and so on. I have a blog
Their humus. For example, if you take one of their leader and
give him a fool , you have the effect of ‘ herd ‘ . your
hahahaha blog is especially stinging to exscn .
Often there is any purpose or ‘ obnossisti ‘ using a
filter, an ‘ off ‘ , data, principles , etc. . What is true,
real and reality, addressed to themselves, is avoided .
Okay , materials of scn , it is useful from the date.
The materials of the cos as you know, are often altered.
I just provide address other blogs, exchange.
Even Ron , without other people , who have discovered
many important pieces of tech , would have done little .
Now I am studying Trom . It ‘ an example of help.
In the blog workabletechnology , they found that
the EG living many years with the same Spirit . Ron said
that changes each life. And ‘ interesting to see how
have come to this discovery.
I ‘m looking mainly based on tech .
I found various things , there is a fundamental error
on how Ron did Dn and scn . And ‘ the reactive mind ,
only that life does not work that way.
Well, after you have cut all ties with cos ,
decades ago, I started slowly doing research.
Who knows one day comm . , These small discoveries .
Before the test course.
Good search . Nic ARC infinity .
It is interesting to see how Geir is interpreting my recent posts on his blog
It is the same old violation of discussion policy there. I guess nothing more needs to be said there.
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Logic can be a trap. One can be very logical while operating on assumptions. It is mindfulness that continually watches for assumptions, but not logic.
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